# Brave brave AMERICA, he he he **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689 "2002-04-20T18:00:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/101 "2002-05-02T12:08:39Z")
Jesus F. Christ - why is this person not BANNED already for obvious trolling? 😕 POWER\_station, your name is a disgrace to self-respecting power plant engineers **and** Robert Palmer fans across all national boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/102 "2002-05-02T12:23:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by reprise \* > BTW Sparculees, I STILL want to have your children. 😉 What would our children then be? EuroPacific? Austropean? Euralian? Or just **reprise** and **Sparculees’** kids? In any case I am flattered. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/103 "2002-05-02T12:33:25Z")
They moved Hawaii? How did they do it? They pushed with one of those big aircraft carriers? ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/104 "2002-05-02T12:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyomara \* > \*\* > **Sparculees,** I have enjoyed your posts in other threads, especially your responses to **POWER\_station,** but I’m not so sure about this one. It seems that you mean to suggest that any nation not willing to join the _political_ entity that is the European Union has no right to consider itself a part of the _cultural_ entity that is Europe, and furthermore that this makes the nation in question worth a laugh, and possibly even inferior. > > \*\* Well put Many European countries haven’t even had a votum about EU. The people had to shut up and join the union. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/105 "2002-05-02T13:47:12Z")
Because their democratically elected governments decided to, and their democratically elected parliaments ratified the decision. How dense are you? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/106 "2002-05-02T14:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Coldfire_ > How dense are you? Think “Black Hole” dense. ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/107 "2002-05-02T14:48:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Because their democratically elected governments decided to, and their democratically elected parliaments ratified the decision. > > How dense are you? \*\* This is undemocratic. I know for a fact that UK didn’t have a votum about it. All countries should have a votum about membership. That’s a fair demand. UK, Denmark and Sweden have decided not be a part of the euro. Seams that they aren’t too happy being a member of EU. By the way: how democratic is EU. Does the EU-parliament have legislative power ? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/108 "2002-05-02T14:57:43Z")
[quote] UK, Denmark and Sweden have decided not be a part of the euro. Seams that they aren’t too happy being a member of EU [quote] Being but a barbaric American, I probably shouldn’t take the time from hunting buffalo and whipping slaves to post this, but Power\_less needs to go to the Clue Store, pronto! Declining to join monetary union is NOT the same thing as not wanting to be in the EU. The purpose of representative democracies is to elect people to make these decisions. It is counterproductive to put every legislative decision to a plebiscite. And what the hell is a “votum”? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/109 "2002-05-02T15:16:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by POWER\_station \* > \*\*I know for a fact that UK didn’t have a votum about it. \*\* Nonsense, there was a [referendum](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2001/uk_and_europe/1970_1979.stm) about joining the ‘Common Market’ in 1975. This is quite significant, as the UK government is not very pro-referenda. Or vota :D. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/110 "2002-05-02T15:16:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by POWER\_station_ > Well put > > Many European countries haven’t even had a votum about EU. The people had to shut up and join the union. :sigh: Eh… you really don’t ever get it right do you? I wouldn’t even reply to this if it wasn’t that other people read these threads and I just cannot let you spread half baked propagandistic dogma around like that. First of all I will acknowledge that there has been a tendency of waning public support for the EU within the Union. It is however important to note that the larger majority seems to not care, which is another problem, one that might even be worse. Every research made so far shows that the more people actually know about the EU, the more likely they are to support the Union. Research after research shows a low to medium general knowledge of the federal governments work, the purpose of the Union and it’s real efficiency. This knowledge is also often enough based on blanket statements like the ones **POWER\_station** so favors. Both the EU pro- and opponents have concluded that this is not satisfactory as it contradicts a basic principle of the EU, namely transparency of governance and active participation in the democratic process. Post the Nice Treaty in 2000 the member states have adopted stringent agendas to increase and ameliorate the quality of available information regarding the EU to the population in the member states and the 10 applicant countries in the former Eastern Block. This information is bipartisan (comes from both the anti federalist and the federalist camp.) Re referendums for or against the EU. I never get this one. The EU countries are, and have been at least since after WWII representative democracies. There are public elections regularly in each country in Europe (well most anyway, and all of us in the EU def. have them). At the time when membership was decided for the current 15 states (this is a long period ranging from the 50s and forward), it was preceded by serious public debate, both sides got a lot of attention and the various political parties took sides and these sides were part of their electoral campaigns. It would have been fairly easy for a population to stop the EU from forming at that point. We chose to not do that. OK so that decision wasn’t to everyone’s liking - too bad that’s how democracy works. So a couple of years down the road we see that it’s a little harder than we thought. Not only that; the very well anticipated cultural problems of merging national cultures are propping up all over the place and a couple of short recessions is making people a little uneasy and worried. Presto, up pops the old EU opponents and start screaming for a referendum. Butcha ya know what… that’s not representative democracy anymore, that’s direct democracy – only the Swiss have it in the whole world, and even they only have it partially, ‘cause it’s really cumbersome to manage and often enough NOT very democratic in end effect. So just because someone didn’t like the outcome of the original popular vote they get to make a populist stab at any swing in public opinion to demand an upset of the governing principles of parliamentary rule??? Get out of town will ya! Europe and the Europeans need the EU, this is such a blatantly obvious fact that hardly one single serious minded politician, economist, historian, or journalist stands on the ‘dissolve the Union’ party side. Granted that there is disagreement on how the Union should be run and how much power it should have, but across the table we’re all totally aware that there is no alternative anymore, turning back would be too costly and too dangerous. The hard core EU opponents are isolated in fringe parties like the Fascists, the Nationalists, the Leftist Greens, the Communists and the Syndicalists. Conservatives, Liberals and Socialists (80-90% of the votes right there bubba!) within the EU agree on one thing: The EU is here to stay. We’re forming a new nation here if you didn’t notice. That’s a process that usually entails some conflict, some setbacks and a lot, a lot of work. Hopefully we’ll be less bloody about it this time around. I hope that we learnt something from the past and that mistakes like the American Civil War doesn’t ever have to happen again. Then again we already were pretty bloody about this one. One should remember that the EU wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the will to never again make mistakes like the ones from 1632, 1870, 1914 and 1939 all over again. If you want material info about what I’m talking about go to the [EU Parliament’s official web site](http://www.europa.eu.int/geninfo/query_en.htm). This link will take you to the search engine. Enter for instance ‘public support for the EU’ and you’ll get Cites for all the above from both parties. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/111 "2002-05-02T15:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by POWER\_station_ > By the way: how democratic is EU. Does the EU-parliament have legislative power ? That’s it! I’ve concluded it! He’s a complete fucking, frothing uninformed idiot! Desist **POWER\_station** , go away, stay ignorant, but please, please, please for the love of something, shut your ignorant goddamned fucking mouth up, will ya! Answer: Very, it’s a representative parliamentary democracy. Answer: Yes but it is limited by the sovereignty of member states in many respects Sparc ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/112 "2002-05-02T16:54:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparculees \* > \*\* > We’re forming a new nation here if you didn’t notice. That’s a process that usually entails some conflict, some setbacks and a lot, a lot of work. Hopefully we’ll be less bloody about it this time around. I hope that we learnt something from the past and that mistakes like the American Civil War doesn’t ever have to happen again. Then again we already were pretty bloody about this one. One should remember that the EU wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the will to never again make mistakes like the ones from 1632, 1870, 1914 and 1939 all over again. > > Sparc \*\* Ehh … a new nation. I think there is an important barriere here, and it’s called English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Greek, Italian, Finnish, Portugese, ++ and perhaps som East-European languages in near future. The languages is the greatest barriere because nations like Germany and Franche will not get it inside their head that English is far more adekvat language that German and French. Don’t get me wrong, I’m more posetive than negative to Eu, but I don’t think that you should expect that EU will be formed to a nation this decade. EU doesn’t change to a nation just because some politican i Brussel have some great ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/113 "2002-05-02T18:08:40Z")
Although I somewhat appreciate your attempt at being level headed here PS. 1. You’re confusing me - what do you believe in? Anything? (…you’re just seeking attention, right?). First you lambaste the EU - then you’re all for it??? First you hate America - then English is a superior language :wally 2. English is not more adequate (note the spelling) it’s just different. Personally I prefer it, but then again I do have the choice between the three… so for me it’s academic. 😃 1. Language and the EU - wow, you’re drunk I take it, you said something that didn’t involve xenophobic drivel and close to being posted bigot free (well then you slipped on that English is superior yada yada). - Subject is close to my heart. - I have many things to say. - Will not post it in the pit and in the present thread. 2. Who said it’s set to happen in this decade. Nations take generations to form. Some of the oldest Nations of the world are still struggling with problems that started at their formation. ATBS EU is in many ways already a nation. European laws supercede the laws of member states. The EU parliament directives are mandatory. The EU has a charter and set of treaties that very much resembles a constitution - although it is more like requirements for membership. There is a federal legislative. There is a federal law enforcement. Our passports are jointly issued in the name of our member state and the Union. We have a flag. We have an anthem. I can run for EU office in my chosen state of residence, independent of place of birth. My right of vote for the parliament is tied to were I live not were I was born. In most parts of the Union I can move over any state border without showing my passport. A joint armed force of defense against external aggression is on the drawing board. etc. etc. etc. I suspect you might be thinking about One Nation, One Language, One People, One Culture…The United friggin’ independent States of America and the European Union of free fucking states aren’t those kind of constructs… maybe that’s what bothers you with us. We’re distinctly pro multiculturalism and pluralism. Try speaking English in some parts of NY or LA… Hola gringo! Que el tal? No hablas Ingles. Y soy Americano! :eek: Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/114 "2002-05-02T23:07:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, I guess the fact that he’s not American is kind of relevant in this thread, but that’s as far as it goes. **Clogboy** : It would be a lot funnier if **POWERLESS\_pooch** were American. Of course, having **Pp** and JDT on the same hemisphere might upset the delicate Balance of Boobiness and send the planet hurtling straight into an anti-American, foreskin-tugging, sock-puppet-wearing hell. I can see the headlines now: “Tug-Ahoys Sink American Lighthouse” “Circumsized Man Has Military-Oedipal Complex, Boinks Military Mom” “WANG (World: America No Good!), The Uncut Story” “Americans Are Dumb. Americans Are Circumsized. My Point Is…” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/115 "2002-05-03T09:57:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Every research made so far shows that the more people actually know about the EU, the more likely they are to support the Union. Even when they find out that part of the EU, the Council of Ministers, meets in secret and they have no right to know anything other than the outcome of the meeting? Indeed, they may even have no right to know how their country’s representative even voted…? And where else can you find this MO? Well, Beijing and Havanna spring to mind. The EU is a force for good but there is very little of it which IMO is not in need of massive rethinking. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/116 "2002-05-03T10:10:33Z")
Does the British government hold all its meetings out in the open, Andy? Or do they meet in private, and discuss their proposals and decisions in and with parliament? I don’t see how the EU is any different. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/117 "2002-05-03T16:03:54Z")
To a certain extent you’re right coldfire, but, the _degree_ of secrecy is quite ridiculous. If you get the time, have a look at Statewatch to see the number of times the council of ministers has had to be taken to task for their reluctance to release even the most basic information. Here things aren’t much better but at least we get the bare bones from the PM’s spokesman and enough info is leaked to give us a reasonable picture. I suppose I feel that the new european government (relatively new that is) should start as it means to go on before the level of necessary secrecy hits the heights of most of our governments. From [this](http://www.polarities.net/focus/2001/curtin.html) article > [@](#): > > First, the definition of “sensitive documents” that was finally included in the Euro-FOIA is actually much broader than the original (Solana) exemption of foreign and defence matters and “non-military crisis management”. The version which has now become law embraces classified documents which arguably extends to all areas of EU activity including justice and home affairs, trade and aid. This would exclude, for example, access to all documents relating to the new EU rapid-reaction paramilitary police force, even with regard to policy-making matters. Second, the inclusion of such “secrecy” provisions in what was meant to be the fundamental law regulating freedom of information allows international organisations such as NATO and third countries such as the US to veto a citizens access to documents if the documents have been drawn up in conjunction with them. and > [@](#): > > Not only did the Commission fail to engage in a serious and open public debate prior to the adoption of its draft law (“regulation”) by immediately coming with a specific proposal without producing either a Green or White paper in advance, but the actual decision-making process on the substance of the Euro-FOIA took place behind closed doors. Doesn’t make one very hopeful does it? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/118 "2002-05-03T16:18:50Z")
Ah well, he’s banned, there we go. Nice weather we’re having, isn’t it? Here, how did you change your name, **Sparc**? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/119 "2002-05-03T17:09:45Z")
It’s easy to change your name…as long as you suck up to TubaDiva. Groveling, begging, and pleading are usually neccesary, as are real tears. None of those fake tears…we want REAL TEARS dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689/120 "2002-05-03T18:46:14Z")
Yup, he’s banned. Good riddance. Weather’s fine here next to the alps. Little cloudy but warm. Think I’ll go golfing tomorrow. …and right you are **Lemur** but I can’t say that I groveled that much… ijust explained it like this: > [@](#): > > In any case, when I registered I simply mindlessly slapped in one of my many, but more infrequently used nicknames in the offline. I’m not happy about it since it’s a diminutive used by my closest friends with a sort of reprimanding ‘ok, that’s cute, but MUST you?’ tone connected to it. You know like when a mother goes joNATHaaan, my friends would go sparCULEeeees! TubaDiva sympathized with that it would seem. 😉 Sparc… yeah that’s right, just Sparc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brave-brave-america-he-he-he/104689.md?page=7)