# Brazil: Hispanic or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 1, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878 "2009-03-01T15:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/21 "2009-03-02T00:39:26Z")
[http://www.brazzil.com/2003/html/articles/oct03/p112oct03.htm](http://www.brazzil.com/2003/html/articles/oct03/p112oct03.htm) “Once again: Brazilians Are Not Hispanic A number of the diverse populations who migrated to Brazil include: Portugal, Italy, Poland, France, Germany, Lebanon, Syria, Japan, Russia, Austria, Turkey all of which are disengaged from the Hispanic-Latino paradigms. Brazilians don’t belong to an illusory Hispanic or Latino “race.” Alan P. Marcus” [http://etn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/3/4/427](http://etn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/3/4/427) This is interesting though - Brazil’s in there but Haiti (one third of Hispaniola itself) lucks out - I wonder if that’s because they speak French and not Portugese? "Notice that the National Hispanic Recognition Program has its own definition of “Hispanic.” Most notably, students from Brazil are considered Hispanic for the NHRP. ‘Quote: To qualify for this program, you must be at least one-quarter Hispanic/Latino. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnic category, not a racial category, and you may be of any race. For purposes of the NHRP, you must be from a family whose ancestors came from at least one of these countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay, or Venezuela.’ " [http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/hispanic-students/641650-hispanic-latino-defined.html](http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/hispanic-students/641650-hispanic-latino-defined.html) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/22 "2009-03-02T01:32:24Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Correct capitalization: **Hispanic**. > > Thank you for clarifying your position. No, why would you think that? I got pretty deep into what hispanic means in the thread that spawned this one, so I’m not going to exhaust myself by starting all over here, but it’s not a nationality or anything. Why would it be capitalized? There are formal, PC instances when capitalization is recommended, but even if you accept that, his use was not one of them. [Here’s a link to the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508500) if you’re interested. The hispanic/Brazil hijack starts roughly around post #23 and goes on and on and on. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/23 "2009-03-02T01:47:07Z")
Like **Cisco** , I noticed that the attempt on that thread was just to muddle the waters and ignore the main subject. Anyhow, “hispanic” used to refer to modern Spain, not Portugal. It was the Pope with the treaty of Tordesillas that was the reason that Brazil came to be, and it was not a part of New Spain. > **[Treaty of Tordesillas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas)** > > The Treaty of Tordesillas,\[a\] signed in Tordesillas, Spain, on 7 June 1494, and ratified in Setúbal, Portugal, divided the newly discovered lands outside Europe between the Kingdom of Portugal and the Crown of Castile, along a meridian 370 leagues or 2,100 kilometres (1,300 mi) west of the Cape Verde islands, off the west coast of Africa. That line of demarcation was about halfway between Cape Verde (already Portuguese) and the islands visited by Christopher Columbus on his first voyage (claime... It is amazing that there is trouble understanding that while Brazil is included in Latin America it is not correct to say that all Latin Americans are Hispanic. > **[Hispanic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic)** > > 21% Protestantism > The term Hispanic (Spanish: hispano) refers to people, cultures, or countries related to Spain, the Spanish language, or Hispanidad broadly. In some contexts, especially within the United States, "Hispanic" is used as an ethnic or meta-ethnic term. > The term commonly applies to Spaniards and Spanish-speaking (Hispanophone) populations and countries in Hispanic America (the continent) and Hispanic Africa (Equatorial Guinea and the disputed territory of Western Sahara), which w... > [@](#): > > The U.S. Office of Management and Budget currently defines “Hispanic or Latino” as “a person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other \*\*Spanish \*\*culture or origin, regardless of race”.[15] Spanish is the important factor on who is considered a hispanic, even in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/24 "2009-03-02T02:08:30Z")
It’s interesting to learn that by some definitions “Latino” excludes Brazilians. That comes as a bit of a surprise to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/25 "2009-03-02T05:11:42Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It’s interesting to learn that by some definitions “Latino” excludes Brazilians. That comes as a bit of a surprise to me. Did you know that, by some definitions, French and Italian people are latinos? Like so many things in life, you won’t find it in a dictionary, but it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/26 "2009-03-02T09:36:07Z")
A poll amongst my Brazilian coworkers, years ago, showed that about two dozen of about two dozen viewed themselves as both Luso (main language Portuguese) and Hispanic (based on the geographic Hispania, not on current-day Spain, and evidently not on language). Before meeting them I wouldn’t have counted Brazil as Hispanic, but if a Brazilian counts himself Hispanic I’m happy to count him so, and if another doesn’t, I’m happy to not count him so. It’s completely a matter of self-identification, and therefore it’s the “selves” who decide which label to use, not me. I know Spaniards who do not count themselves Hispanic (because they’re not Hispanoamericano) and I refrain from hitting them :p! ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/27 "2009-03-02T15:26:46Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > A poll amongst my Brazilian coworkers, years ago, showed that about two dozen of about two dozen viewed themselves as both Luso (main language Portuguese) and Hispanic (based on the geographic Hispania, not on current-day Spain, and evidently not on language). > > Before meeting them I wouldn’t have counted Brazil as Hispanic, but if a Brazilian counts himself Hispanic I’m happy to count him so, and if another doesn’t, I’m happy to not count him so. It’s completely a matter of self-identification, and therefore it’s the “selves” who decide which label to use, not me. I know Spaniards who do not count themselves Hispanic (because they’re not Hispanoamericano) and I refrain from hitting them :p! Brazil is a diverse country and there are hispanic Brazilians just as there are hispanic citizens of the United States, but two dozen out of two dozen? :dubious: You met a very unique sample group indeed. Also I just . . . can’t . . . imagine . . . someone considering themself hispanic for the reason you state. Not a Brazilian, at least. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/28 "2009-03-02T17:51:25Z")
I have met quite a few Argentinians-and they consider themselves european-not Hispanic. Reminds me of an old saying in S. America: “an Argentine is an Italian who speaks Spanish, and thinks he’'s and Englishman”. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/29 "2009-03-02T18:46:17Z")
Argentina is perhaps one of the most diverse countries on Earth. Many Argentines are hispanic (hard to say what percentage; a very large minority at minimum, but possibly a small majority), but that one word doesn’t even begin to cover it. It is much more hispanic than Brazil, in that Spain ruled it for hundreds of years, and Spanish is the official language. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/30 "2009-03-02T19:28:21Z")
I consider myself an Argentinian, 90% of Argentina’s population is White. I already told the story here but when my father was young (1960) Most people in Mar del Plata spoke Italian. Despite that we don’t care for ethnic definitions, as you do (I say this after reading the US Bureau “rules”). No one ever asked me here what is my racial heritage. For the record my father - while having an spanish surname - is tall, blond and with nordic features (square jaws, etc); my mother is clearly latin. My father often jokes that I am his negative because I am like him but my skin colour is more like my mother’s. Most of my ancestors were spanish or french. But I also have an English captain, captured during the British Invasions, a danish merchant captain (the reason my father is blond); and, according to family legends, an inca princess. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/31 "2009-03-02T20:08:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Hispanic (based on the geographic Hispania, not on current-day Spain, and evidently not on language). That’s what i was going to say. Hispanic isn’t from Spain; Hispanic is from Hispania which certainly included Portugal. Of course I guess by the same logic you could really piss off Germans . Since France(Frankreich) is named after the Franks, and the Frankish territory covered modern Germany, Germans are French(französisch), 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/32 "2009-03-02T20:54:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > based on the geographic Hispania, not on current-day Spain, and evidently not on language > [@wolfman](#): > > That’s what i was going to say. Hispanic isn’t from Spain; Hispanic is from Hispania which certainly included Portugal. Sigh, no. That would include parts of France and potentially make some Canadians and many Africans hispanic. Apart from some wacky bureaucratic/political pigeonholes, a good definition of hispanic is “related to, or derived from, the Spanish people or the culture of Spain or other Hispanophone countries.” Another good definition, that I already mentioned in the other thread, is “in the Spanish style.” Look it’s really not complicated; you can use historical confusion and cultural arrogance/indifference to acrobatically claim many people are hispanic but a really _really_ good indicator is the Spanish language. Brazilians speak Portuguese. Another good litmus test is if a people _consider themselves_ hispanic. Brazilians don’t. This argument was a non-starter right out of the gate, and only got this far because some people cannot accept being wrong on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/33 "2009-03-02T21:03:36Z")
First, Spanish is spoken rather fluently by most residents of Brazil. I know it isn’t the dominant language, but it certainly has an influence. Also, I’m amused by the standard of “what Brazilians consider themselves”. If they considered themselves Martians, would they really be Martians? People and things are what they really are, not what they would like to be. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/34 "2009-03-02T21:15:23Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > First, Spanish is spoken rather fluently by most residents of Brazil. I know it isn’t the dominant language, but it certainly has an influence. > > Also, I’m amused by the standard of “what Brazilians consider themselves”. If they considered themselves Martians, would they really be Martians? People and things are what they really are, not what they would like to be. The moon landings, 9/11, and the JFK assassination all have elements that can be poked and prodded at; it doesn’t make the conspiracy theories true. Are you saying Brazilians are hispanic? If not, what _are_ you saying, besides just being argumentative? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/35 "2009-03-02T21:27:26Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > First, Spanish is spoken rather fluently by most residents of Brazil. I know it isn’t the dominant language, but it certainly has an influence. I can’t speak with assurance to this, but I think you’re incorrect. _Some_ Brasileiros speak Spanish, more understand it in the way monolingual Spanish and Italian speakers can make themselves understood to the other. But “most”? I strongly doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/36 "2009-03-02T21:29:21Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The moon landings, 9/11, and the JFK assassination all have elements that can be poked and prodded at; it doesn’t make the conspiracy theories true. Are you saying Brazilians are hispanic? If not, what _are_ you saying, besides just being argumentative? I’m just being argumentative. 😉 My point is that Brazilians either are or are not Hispanic, and it makes no difference what they think they are.. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/37 "2009-03-02T21:35:17Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Sigh, no. That would include parts of France and potentially make some Canadians and many Africans hispanic. Apart from some wacky bureaucratic/political pigeonholes, a good definition of hispanic is “related to, or derived from, the Spanish people or the culture of Spain or other Hispanophone countries.” Another good definition, that I already mentioned in the other thread, is “in the Spanish style.” Look it’s really not complicated; you can use historical confusion and cultural arrogance/indifference to acrobatically claim many people are hispanic but a really _really_ good indicator is the Spanish language. Brazilians speak Portuguese. Another good litmus test is if a people _consider themselves_ hispanic. Brazilians don’t. This argument was a non-starter right out of the gate, and only got this far because some people cannot accept being wrong on the internet. I can buy this as the best answer. “Hispanic” means, if it means anything definable by an outsider, “related to the culture of a Spanish-speaking country or countries.” That a given subsection of Argentine culture speaks Italian or Welsh (Argentina has the largest Cymrophone population outside Wales, England included), a Mexican group Nahuatl, or an Andean villages-complex Quechua, is not quite relevant – they are part of a larger region with similar culture where Spanish is the lingua franca and official language. (The Atlantic Coast of Nicaragua includes a section where the people speak as fluent English as anyone on this board; that doesn’t make them part of Anglo-America.) What Brazil84 noted, and I concurred with him on, is that Latin American does include Brazil (and some other non-Hispanic places), and that “Hispanic” is sometimes sloppily used as a synonym for “Latino” – so there is a _descriptivist_ reason for including them in some people’s conception of “Hispanic.” ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/38 "2009-03-02T23:54:32Z")
FWIW, and AFAIK, in Latin America Brazilians are both counted as Ibero-Americans and Latino Americans, but not as Hispanics. Natives of French-speaking countries are not considered Latino Americans, despite the fact that going by the strict definition of the term they should. Otherwise Quebecians, Hatians and Cajuns would also be considered Latinos. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/39 "2009-03-03T01:26:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, I’m amused by the standard of “what Brazilians consider themselves”. If they considered themselves Martians, would they really be Martians? People and things are what they really are, not what they would like to be. Not only that, but “Hispanic” is an English word. The opinion of Brazilians may be of interest, but also weight should be given to how English speakers use the word. As another example, many people in Europe or Latin America might consider me to be a “yankee” (or a yanqui?) since I live in the United States. Nevertheless, I don’t self-identify as a “yankee.” To me, a “yankee” is someone who lives in New England with the connotation that their family has lived in New England for many generations. I would never presume to tell a Latin American that his or her definition of “yankee” is “wrong.” It’s just a definition and that’s how the word is used in many places. Also, I think it’s possible to go overboard focusing on the root or original meanings of words. As has been noted “Latin America” does not really include Quebec anymore, even though it was apparently intended to. When the Black-Eyed Peas sing about “Latin Girls,” most folks understand that they are not referring to Haitians or Quebecoises. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878/40 "2009-03-03T01:41:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Also, I think it’s possible to go overboard focusing on the root or original meanings of words. It’s also possible to go overboard refusing to let go of your arguments on the internet, when you’re clearly wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil-hispanic-or-not/487878.md?page=3)