# Brazil84 doesn't get what's wrong with the claim that majorities of sub-saharan africans are retards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198 "2013-10-25T11:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/241 "2013-10-30T13:21:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, you look for an excuse to run away. I’m not surprised. Seems like you’re just happy to jump on the bag wagon and throw stones at the ones you and the crowd think deserve it. No. I just don’t like to try to “convince” white supremacists that non-whites should be treated as people, too. Talking to you would be a waste of time - you are either so racist you think it’s OK to assume black people are on average mentally retarded, or so biased you are willing to side with nazis as long as they’re opposing liberals. Either way, talking to you is not worthwhile. > [@](#): > > Funny thing, this brazil84 who you think so lowly of, at least he forms his own ideas and then seeks to defend them. But I guess you find it easier to throw those rocks… Unlike you, who apparently gets his ideas from Stormfront. Why are all the conservatives on this board such giant scum? I seriously don’t get it. You’d think there would be at least one who wasn’t utterly, completely disgusting as a person, like white supremacist magellan here. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/242 "2013-10-30T13:25:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > A society relies on everyone being reasonably smart for it to work. Please define “reasonably smart” and show proof of your claim. > [@](#): > > You simply can’t have the majority of people require ongoing help to just get through life and expect anything to work. What kind of help are you talking about and why not? Also, please answer my question from before: Since you use the phrase “start to fall apart,” can I take it you agree that there is some average national IQ where one would expect things to be functional but functioning poorly? > [@](#): > > Sure, and my car was built in Korea, which does not mean Koreans are smarter than Canadians. Who RUNS the infrastructure? Do you actually not know how much work goes into just keeping a city running, or how complicated it gets? Lol, I know enough to do a Google search. Which I did for “botsana” “operation” “electricity” “contract.” And found this: > [@](#): > > On October 31st, 2011 it was signed the **Operation and Maintenance** Contract of Morupule B 4 x 150MW Coal-Fired Power Plant between Chairman and President Mr. Zhao Ruolin and Chairman of BPC Mrs. Ewetse Tata Rakhudu (my bolding). This is on the web site of the China National Electric Engineering Company. And this from the web site of APR Energy, a company out of Jacksonville Florida: > [@](#): > > GABORONE, Botswana – During his recent trip to Francistown, the Chargé d’Affaires and Acting US Ambassador, Michael Murphy of the U.S. Embassy Gaborone, Botswana took the opportunity to visit APR Energy’s 70MW power plant site. The Acting Ambassador toured the facility as part of his campaign to promote trade and commercial ties between Botswana and the United States. During his visit, Mr. Murphy met with APR Energy’s plant management to discuss the Company’s day-to-day operations in Botswana as well as APR Energy’s other power plant facilities around the globe. > > “APR Energy’s 70MW facility in Francistown is a key component of Botswana’s power generation infrastructure, filling a critical gap that provides reliable electricity to power the country’s development,” said Mr. Murphy. “Moreover, APR’s expanding presence in Botswana is indicative of the opportunity to American firms presented by this country’s steady growth trajectory in the power sector and more broadly across the economy.” > > This visit is following the recent extension of APR Energy’s power contract with the Botswana Power Corporation (BPC), the local national electrical utility. APR Energy has been operating successfully the turnkey diesel power plant for BPC since late 2009, when it was engaged to counteract “electricity shortages driven by demand growth and supply constraints in the Southern Africa region.” > [@](#): > > Depends what you mean by “IQ.” Well what did you mean by “normalized IQ” when you asserted that “there are no countries in the world where the normalized IQ isn’t 100”? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/243 "2013-10-30T13:27:09Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > So . . . you’ve put \*yourself \*on the ignore list now? Lol, no. Are you saying that I have insisted on misrepresenting somebody’s position? My own position? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/244 "2013-10-30T13:29:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well perhaps you are the one who is delusional. Let’s look at the evidence. For example, consider the most recent addition to my shit list: **Karrius**. > > For starters, do you agree with his assertion that I post the “exact same cites in every thread?” > > Another possibility is that I prefer not to engage with people who strawman; who weasel; and so forth. It’s not like these kinds of tactics are incredibly rare. > > You yourself attempted to strawman me a while back but disappeared when I called you out on it. > > But again, let’s focus on the evidence: > > Do you agree with Karrius’ assertion that I post the “exact same cites in every thread?” > > Of course, I have a feeling that you are not interested in considering evidence which might undermine your position. But we’ll see. Remember when I said he seizes on tiny semantic arguments in hopes of validating the 99% of his argument that has been shown to be idiotic? This is the sort of thing I meant. Go on, **Dissonance** - get yourself ignored. You’ll feel better for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/245 "2013-10-30T13:35:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The CP/Chen argument essentially boils down to tautology- the best explanation for disparate outcomes is that test scores (and other outcomes) are disparate between the groups/races/ethnicities. It’s a profoundly weak argument- it says “because there have been paltry efforts for a few decades to make up for centuries of oppression, the outcomes of the present (but not the different outcomes of the past) somehow perfectly align with a natural genetic hierarchy of intelligence”. For their genetic explanation, only genetic evidence can confirm it. And this is especially true considering the massive effects that we already know “nurture” can have on these outcomes. Without redirecting the thread, I’m not sure that’s a full enough characterization of their position. And I don’t say that he agree with either of them 100%. To be honest, I don’t have the level of interest to dive into the subject as deeply as they have, nor to defend their position as my own. As I think I stated, we see clear outward physical differences among the races. We see that some inward differences, like musculature, it’s effect in sports that require a high degree of innate ability as a starting point, e.g., sprinting. I see these differences and accept them, as they are factual. So when the discussion moves to the brain, I don’t start with an opinion either way. Well, actually, I think my starting point would be that there would be no cognitive differences, simply because on the overwhelming weight of evidence concerning similarities and differences, the similarities FAR outweigh the differences. We each have two eyes, ten fingers, etc., a million things the same. But I would not be surprised if among the differences that do exist some might be found in the brain and it’s functioning. As a white mail I am not threatened by the a supposed "superiority of the Asian brain. On average, it might very well be a better tool. But that doesn’t mean that the smartest person in the world might be white, or black, nor that I’m not smarter than any Asian I might meet. So, it’s a merely a clinical theory to me. I see many on the left of the mind that THIS CANNOT BE!!! So, the group who claims to hold science on high, tries their hardest to discredit and shut down those who take a clinical look at things, namely **Chen** and \*\*Pedant Chief. \*\* In the end, they may very well be wrong. There might be new information that comes to light that pulls the floor out from every aspect of their arguments. Conversely, some new piece of evidence may give great support to their ideas. From the reading I’ve done of these threads, which has been a fair amount (a few of which I’ve actively participated in in the past) I do not see their thoughts as racist in the least. (Racial, naturally, but not racist.) I also haven’t seem arguments to counter them that are _fully_ convincing. I think the truth is that we (humans) simply don’t know enough yet to come to a final conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/246 "2013-10-30T13:37:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Seems like you’re just happy to jump on the bag wagon and throw stones at the ones you and the crowd think deserve it. What the fuck is a bag wagon? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/247 "2013-10-30T13:39:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You know who else was an original thinker and maverick on issues of race?.. Bartolomé de las Casas? ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/248 "2013-10-30T13:47:29Z")
magellan01 doesn’t think claiming that black people are, on average, mentally retarded is “racist in the least”. Can we have this forced onto his posts as a signature just so people know what they’re dealing with? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/249 "2013-10-30T13:51:04Z")
> [@Heehaw Jones](#): > > What the fuck is a bag wagon? A wagon for bags, of course. Also, a typo. Let’s not get bogged (or bagged) down in it, lest the spirit of Gaudere visit us all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/250 "2013-10-30T13:52:08Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > No. I just don’t like to try to “convince” white supremacists that non-whites should be treated as people, too. I didn’t ask you to convince me of anything. I asked you to first supply a couple of definitions so I’d better understand your claims. You failed to provide them. I then posted the actual words from the thread in question by the person you find so vile, asking you to point out what was so hateful. Instead of helping communication and backing up your blustery accusations, you look for an excuse to run away. Based on that I feel confident in concluding that you are all mouth. > [@Karrius](#): > > Talking to you would be a waste of time - you are either so racist you think it’s OK to assume black people are on average mentally retarded, or so biased you are willing to side with nazis as long as they’re opposing liberals. Either way, talking to you is not worthwhile. Haha, that’s it try to find an excuse to run away. Much easier than standing up for what you say. I love the scope of the possibility you allow for—I must necessarily be a super racist or prefer nazis over liberals. Such brilliance, mental dexterity… The question I’m left with is if you’re either too stupid to be able to do so or smart enough to not try, knowing that all you got is mouth. > [@Karrius](#): > > Unlike you, who apparently gets his ideas from Stormfront. You’re a funny one. Been to Stormfront once, when it was mentioned on _these_ boards. But I just must be an evil nazi-loving super racist. That way you don’t have to think and can continue to run your mouth. > [@Karrius](#): > > Why are all the conservatives on this board such giant scum? I seriously don’t get it. You’d think there would be at least one who wasn’t utterly, completely disgusting as a person, like white supremacist magellan here. Honey, there’s soooo much you don’t get. Bu thanks for throwing in the aside to the crowd, looking for strength. There is no surer sign of a weak mind. So, thanks for including it, as unsurprising as it was. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/251 "2013-10-30T14:00:20Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > magellan01 doesn’t think claiming that black people are, on average, mentally retarded is “racist in the least”. > > Can we have this forced onto his posts as a signature just so people know what they’re dealing with? Rally those people around you, weak one. But let me, if I may, correct your mischaracterization of what I believe concerning that particular claim. As I stated in a post to you, I don’t understand what he meant by the claim. So, it’s impossible for me to agree or disagree with it, even though it sounds ridiculous. Now, how about you try being a little more honest. Just for giggles. And how about you reply to my post in which I posted the quotes from brazil84 and asked you to point to the “hateful ones”. and while you’re at it, I’m still waiting for the **Karrius the Mouth’s** definition of “hate speech” and “lie”. Since you seem to like to use the phrases so much, I’m sure you can provide definitions that would benefit me. And possibly others! ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/252 "2013-10-30T14:01:30Z")
I explained why I thought my characterization of his posts was accurate. You ignored them, and instead wanted specific, precise definitions so you can play the same game brazil was, with hunting and pecking for specifics. No, I’m not going to give an exact definition of “hate speech” - why should I? I said why I thought what he said was hate speech, I don’t need to define the term, I just need to say why what brazil does falls within my personal gauge of it. Why don’t you give a definition, and explain why you think brazil’s stuff isn’t hate speech, or explain why my definition is wrong? Answer: Because you like to use the same debate tactics brazil does. Also, while you’re at it, can you please specify if you’re more of a nazi kind of person, or a KKK kind of person? Please don’t evade this question. Don’t run away, magellan! Don’t run away! Also, I am going to remember this thread the next time someone whines how those damn african americans are biased towards democrats. The fact that conservatives are honestly arguing they’re all mentally retarded and see nothing wrong with that can’t have _anything_ to do with it… ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/253 "2013-10-30T14:04:06Z")
**Edit:** tomndebb removed his post. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/254 "2013-10-30T14:06:16Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > **Edit:** tomndebb removed his post. Sorry. I was following a similar thread in GD and forgot that I had opened this one in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/255 "2013-10-30T14:08:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. I was following a similar thread in GD and forgot that I had opened this one in the Pit. Understandable. I think it is a cosmic law of nature that if there’s a GD thread on the subject, there is always an associated pit thread, where the same damn arguments are made in both. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/256 "2013-10-30T14:13:57Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > I explained why I thought my characterization of his posts was accurate. You ignored them, and instead wanted specific, precise definitions so you can play the same game brazil was, with hunting and pecking for specifics. No, I’m not going to give an exact definition of “hate speech” - why should I? I said why I thought what he said was hate speech, I don’t need to define the term, I just need to say why what brazil does falls within my personal gauge of it. Why don’t you give a definition, and explain why you think brazil’s stuff isn’t hate speech, or explain why my definition is wrong? Answer: Because you like to use the same debate tactics brazil does. Defining of terms is helpful in communications. It seems like a very simple and fair request. Especially when you hurl accusations so easily. The reason I supplied those quotes was to see if there was something in there that looked like what I would characterize as hate speech. I didn’t. I provided the actual quotes to you because you, oddly, refused to define the term you used, so I was hoping you could simply point to the specific quote and say "Here. What he says right here, these words, that’s hate speech. What did you do in response, you ran away. So, why not go back to that post and point to that hateful speech? Whataya say, Mouth? > [@Karrius](#): > > Also, while you’re at it, can you please specify if you’re more of a nazi kind of person, or a KKK kind of person? Please don’t evade this question. Don’t run away, magellan! Don’t run away! I do appreciate a kick-ass uniform. And I do like consecutive strike outs. Does that help? > [@Karrius](#): > > Also, I am going to remember this thread the next time someone whines how those damn african americans are biased towards democrats. The fact that conservatives are honestly arguing they’re all mentally retarded and see nothing wrong with that can’t have _anything_ to do with it… Cite? Can you please point to conservatives arguing all African-Americans are mentally retarded. Please be specific, with actual quotes, lest I, and possibly others, come to the conclusion that you are full of shit and can’t control your big yap. I’m sure you wouldn’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/257 "2013-10-30T14:20:04Z")
There is no single quote. It’s the repeated insistence - that he’s always disputed, told why what he’s saying is wrong, and his response is to put the person telling him he’s wrong on ignore, and continue is claims, over, and over, and over. It’s hate speech because it is trying to portray an entire group of people as “less than” - as savages, as unable to hold up a culture, of being unintelligent to the point of being as stupid as the stupidest “normal people” (in his eyes). I really don’t see how it’s not hate speech - it is the consistent, repeated attempt to portray a group one people as so lesser that they would be totally unable to function in society. I’m not going to hold your hand. Read the damn thread, read the other threads brazil has participated in. If that’s not enough for you, then we will not see eye to eye no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/258 "2013-10-30T15:06:52Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > There is no single quote. It’s the repeated insistence - that he’s always disputed, told why what he’s saying is wrong, and his response is to put the person telling him he’s wrong on ignore, and continue is claims, over, and over, and over. It’s hate speech because it is trying to portray an entire group of people as “less than” - as savages, as unable to hold up a culture, of being unintelligent to the point of being as stupid as the stupidest “normal people” (in his eyes). I really don’t see how it’s not hate speech - it is the consistent, repeated attempt to portray a group one people as so lesser that they would be totally unable to function in society. > > I’m not going to hold your hand. Read the damn thread, read the other threads brazil has participated in. If that’s not enough for you, then we will not see eye to eye no matter what. As much as it pains me to support **magellan** (and believe me, it pains me), the population segment that is being characterized as having mentally-disabled-level IQ is subsaharan Africans, not African-Americans. I agree that putting AAs in the middle position between that 70IQ SSA segment and the 100IQ “normal white person” segment is a false equivalence, but it’s not that 85IQ AA segment that ends up being regarded as “retarded” if we believe IQs mean anything across cultural lines. So **magellan** is right (and this may be the only time you ever see that phrase attributed to me in sincerity) that **brazil84** isn’t saying that African-Americans have 70IQ. It’s SSAs he’s claiming that about. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/259 "2013-10-30T15:12:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > As much as it pains me to support **magellan** (and believe me, it pains me), the population segment that is being characterized as having mentally-disabled-level IQ is subsaharan Africans, not African-Americans. I agree that putting AAs in the middle position between that 70IQ SSA segment and the 100IQ “normal white person” segment is a false equivalence, but it’s not that 85IQ AA segment that ends up being regarded as “retarded” if we believe IQs mean anything across cultural lines. > > So **magellan** is right (and this may be the only time you ever see that phrase attributed to me in sincerity) that **brazil84** isn’t saying that African-Americans have 70IQ. It’s SSAs he’s claiming that about. Which doesn’t apply to what you quoted, I was intentionally using a vague “groups” and such, it only applies to my glib quote about conservatives whining that they don’t get the black vote, which wasn’t meant to be 100% scrutinized in a pain in the ass Bricker way while ignoring the obvious giant racist elephant (no pun intended). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/260 "2013-10-30T16:23:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Without redirecting the thread, I’m not sure that’s a full enough characterization of their position. And I don’t say that he agree with either of them 100%. To be honest, I don’t have the level of interest to dive into the subject as deeply as they have, nor to defend their position as my own. As I think I stated, we see clear outward physical differences among the races. We see that some inward differences, like musculature, it’s effect in sports that require a high degree of innate ability as a starting point, e.g., sprinting. > I see these differences and accept them, as they are factual. The supposed sprinting advantage is not so clearly innate as you might think. And even if it is innate, only at the highest echelons are the statistical differences so stark. Assuming it is so, if the very very best genes for sprinting happen to occur more often in people of west african descent, this says little about average people or even the population as a whole. Olympic sprinters may be more likely to be black, but at the high school level (for example), we see race-winners of every background. > [@](#): > > So when the discussion moves to the brain, I don’t start with an opinion either way. Well, actually, I think my starting point would be that there would be no cognitive differences, simply because on the overwhelming weight of evidence concerning similarities and differences, the similarities FAR outweigh the differences. We each have two eyes, ten fingers, etc., a million things the same. But I would not be surprised if among the differences that do exist some might be found in the brain and it’s functioning. And these differences may well exist, and they may well be genetic. I have never denied this possibility. I have simply asked for decent evidence, which must include the genes. Not just for good science (though that’s reason enough), but because the history of such claims has been so closely associated with brutal repression. > [@](#): > > As a white mail I am not threatened by the a supposed "superiority of the Asian brain. On average, it might very well be a better tool. But that doesn’t mean that the smartest person in the world might be white, or black, nor that I’m not smarter than any Asian I might meet. So, it’s a merely a clinical theory to me. I see many on the left of the mind that THIS CANNOT BE!!! So, the group who claims to hold science on high, tries their hardest to discredit and shut down those who take a clinical look at things, namely **Chen** and \*\*Pedant Chief. \*\* In the end, they may very well be wrong. There might be new information that comes to light that pulls the floor out from every aspect of their arguments. Conversely, some new piece of evidence may give great support to their ideas. > > From the reading I’ve done of these threads, which has been a fair amount (a few of which I’ve actively participated in in the past) I do not see their thoughts as racist in the least. (Racial, naturally, but not racist.) I also haven’t seem arguments to counter them that are _fully_ convincing. I think the truth is that we (humans) simply don’t know enough yet to come to a final conclusion. I don’t think I’ve characterized **CP** as racist. I haven’t interacted with **Chen** much, because he doesn’t really interact… he tends to just buzz by to drop some “black people are inferior” links and then leaves. And I haven’t come to any conclusion at all- I’ve largely just pointed out the weakness in their claims. Those claims are fundamentally set upon the idea that the disparate outcomes we see now, which are different than the disparate outcomes from 50 or 100 years ago (and those are different from the more distant past, and so on), just happen to perfectly reflect some sort of natural hierarchy. So when the Irish, or the Chines, or the Jews had lower test scores, or were in a worse economic situation on average, or more likely to be involved in crime, that was because of society and oppression. But now everything’s hunky-dory- and any groups that have lower test scores or other disparate, negative outcomes, are only in that position because of innate inferiority (on average) in some trait or another. These are extraordinary claims! Why should NOW be so special? Why are disparate outcomes of the past dismissed because of social problems, but disparate outcomes today are magically “correct”? Are we supposed to believe that, after centuries of some of the most brutal kinds of oppression and dehumanization in human history (yes, American slavery and the subsequent institutionalized discrimination really was _especially and unusually bad_, and more importantly, it was quite recent), a few decades is enough to bring this group’s descendants into a fully equal position? This just doesn’t pass the sniff test. Sure, some groups might have a greater or lesser likelihood of genes for certain traits (including high or low intelligence), but to me, the idea of looking at social outcomes (test scores, crime stats, economics, etc) in the world we live in for data about the genes of the most fundamental qualities that make us human is ludicrous. Ultimately, I don’t believe intelligence test scores for any groups at all, in today’s world, can give us any significant information about the genes for intelligence among that group. A great example is that the average of IQ test scores in Ireland 40 years ago was 87, and today it’s about 100. We can say with reasonable certainty that genetics had nothing to do with this change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=14)