# Brazil84 doesn't get what's wrong with the claim that majorities of sub-saharan africans are retards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198 "2013-10-25T11:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/301 "2013-10-31T20:18:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Goodbye, liar. Every time \*\*brazil84 \*\*says “Goodbye” an angel gets its wings! ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/302 "2013-10-31T20:42:50Z")
> [@Guy Rotting](#): > > And some people, failing to achieve either of the above, just post as a form of masturbation. Well in all fairness, the mods hate it when you masturbate as a form of posting. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/303 "2013-10-31T20:50:43Z")
> [@Telemarked for Death](#): > > Every time \*\*brazil84 \*\*says “Goodbye” an angel gets its wings! It’s funny that he continues to do this while seemingly oblivious to how really fucking batshit crazy this makes him look. On the other hand, I can’t help but have the disturbing feeling that he’ll eventually end up writing “banned” user names in his own feces on his cell walls. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/304 "2013-10-31T20:56:02Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Dear stupid: I have no interest in your question. I am so disinterested in your question that I have no opinion on the matter. It is not possible for me to be ‘wrong’ about something that I have not expressed any opinion on. You did express an opinion. You asserted that I was “delusional” for claiming that I declined to engage with people because they did things like misrepresenting my arguments or their own. Then, when I offered to discuss a specific instance, the most recent one in fact, then all of a sudden you lost interest. I take it that you are abandoning your earlier opinion? This is a serious question. > [@](#): > > Dear stupid: when I said “What in god’s name are you talking about little man? I assure you I’ve never disappeared as a result of you ‘calling me out’ on anything.” Dear Professor McFatty: As I stated before, only you know why you disappeared. Perhaps it was because you heard the ice cream truck coming, prompting you to rush out of your mother’s basement and forget about the exchange. It doesn’t change the fact that you did strawman me; I did challenge you; and you did disappear. I’m happy to provide a quote and link if you like. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/305 "2013-10-31T20:58:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t believe you. Suit yourself, but you are playing by your own rules – not mine. All I require is a simple representation. If you decline to provide supporting evidence or argument for your claim, it’s your choice. But please do answer my questions from before – so that I can understand your position: Are you claiming that the people in Botswana run their own infrastructure? Also, what did you mean by “normalized IQ” when you asserted that “there are no countries in the world where the normalized IQ isn’t 100”? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/306 "2013-10-31T21:20:27Z")
> [@Telemarked for Death](#): > > **Brazil84** is not debating. He’s repeatedly pushing discredited research Please give 3 examples “discredited research” which I have pushed. Please give the name of the researcher(s) and a link to the post where I cited that researcher’s work. TIA. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/307 "2013-10-31T21:41:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please give 3 examples “discredited research” which I have pushed Please give 3 examples of where you haven’t had your head up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/308 "2013-10-31T22:23:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You did express an opinion. You asserted that I was “delusional” for claiming that I declined to engage with people because they did things like misrepresenting my arguments or their own. Not even you can be this stupid. I’ve been asserting you are delusional for quite literally _years_. I’ve been calling you delusional from my first post in this thread. My calling you delusional has fuck-all to do with your pointless, distracting question upon which I have not expressed, nor do I care enough about to have an opinion on. You are a delusional, self-important nutbag. Again, I’ve been saying this for years. > [@](#): > > I’m happy to provide a quote and link if you like. Apparently you’re not, as this is now the third time I’ve had to tell you I have no idea what you are talking about. A normal person would have figured out that citing what the fuck you are talking about would clarify being told I have no idea what you are talking about the first time. Again, not even you can be this stupid. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/309 "2013-10-31T22:38:00Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Not even you can be this stupid. I’ve been asserting you are delusional for quite literally _years_. I’m not sure what your point is here. You asserted an opinion and then denied having an opinion. I asked if you were abandoning your earlier opinion and you ignored my question. As I am sure you know, I don’t engage with people who insist on weaseling. So I will put you on my shit list. See below. > [@](#): > > Apparently you’re not, as this is now the third time I’ve had to tell you I have no idea what you are talking about. You didn’t ask me to supply a link; what you mainly did is insist that you did not disappear because of my challenge. As I have said before, only you know why you disappeared. Just for kicks, I will post a link to where you strawmanned me: [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16463133&postcount=352) > [@](#): > > inferring anti-Semitism from someone criticizing Israel and not immediately criticizing similar actions by other countries is far from reasonable Of course I never said such a thing and I challenged you: > [@](#): > > Please show me where I asserted that the criticism of other countries must be “immediate” to avoid an inference of anti-Semitism (either direct or indirect). Please quote me. Failing that, please admit that I said no such thing and apologize. You never responded. I don’t know why you didn’t, but it doesn’t matter at this point. You are a liar, a weasel, and a complete scumbag and I’m glad that in all likelihood I will never again read the drivel you post. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/310 "2013-10-31T22:41:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sorry, it’s not my responsibility to go searching for evidence to back up your claims. That’s your responsibility. > > Goodbye, liar. But you’ve missed the point. What I’m trying to tell you is th. . . . . . Oh. . . . Well, I guess it’s for the best. He has released me. I suppose it’s an act of mercy, really. Farewell, **Brazil**. . . . . . Oh, right. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/311 "2013-10-31T23:18:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I imagine it’s because intellectual dishonesty is such an ingrained habit for you that you do it constantly without much thought. This has to be one of the most astonishingly blatant examples of ‘the pot calling the kettle black’ that I have ever seen. Truly astonishing. He’s managed to crank it up to [del]eleven[/del] twelve. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/312 "2013-10-31T23:19:19Z")
> [@Telemarked for Death](#): > > **Brazil84** is not debating. He’s repeatedly pushing discredited research, ignoring counter-arguments, and using poor logic to support a biased thesis. I have sympathy for people unfairly ganged up on by posters that disagree with their debate point. **I have no sympathy for one who knowingly and repeatedly couches bigotry** under the guise of science. (emphasis mine) Are you sure he’s ignoring counter arguments? Might it not be that he is simply not swayed by them? Just as others are not swayed by his? As far as the bolded part, what do you meant be he “knowingly” couches bigotry? What do you think he knows that he’s keeping to himself? And a question: is merely discussing whether there are differences between the races equivalent to “bigotry”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/313 "2013-10-31T23:39:46Z")
> [@Severed Hand of Dorkness](#): > > At what point can a person be called racist? > > Because for me, a person who ascribes overwhelmingly negative traits to a sociological group based on perceived genetic differences, in accordance with a long tradition of ascribing those same negative traits to that sociological group as part of an effort to subjugate that group and deny that group equal rights, is acting in a way I feel very comfortable describing as appallingly racist. Whoa. There are a lot of conditions in that. Lets’ break it up, and let me take them one at a time: \*\*A) a person who ascribes overwhelmingly negative traits to a sociological group \*\* Does it matter if the claim, whatever it may be, is factual \*\*B) based on perceived genetic differences, \*\* How about if those differences are real? We generally favor stature that is taller rather than shorter. Is it racist to point out that Asians are generally shorter? Pygmies? **C) in accordance with a long tradition of ascribing those same negative traits to that sociological group** This gets to the crux of it. You really want people to temper a debate due to past injustices. While I see that it can be an uncomfortable discussion, stifling it is a blatant appeal to emotion. The kind of thing that should be kept out of a debate, not embraced and offered as a reason to either end the discussion or surrender. \*\*D) as part of an effort to subjugate that group \*\* Again, it’s part of history. And as unpleasant as the motivations of previous generations might have been, insisting that someone opposed to you in a debate must necessarily share those motivations is just plain wrongheaded. Not to mention, begging the question. \*\*E) and deny that group equal rights \*\* Yes, that was the goal in the past. Why believe, assume, insist that someone taking a clinical view of things today must share the goals of generations past? That seems ridiculous to me. Are the who did the work identifying the gene associated with sickle cell anemia racist because they found a stark difference of incidence between black and white populations. Were they trying to subjugate, too? > [@Severed Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If you don’t, under what circumstances WOULD you feel comfortable with such a description? When someone simply shares a racist thought. But racial is not the same as racist. Something may very well be both, but one must start from the assumption that one is not a racist. If not, how quickly are you willing to jump the gun? And that is what you would be doing. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/314 "2013-10-31T23:52:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Now this just sounds like whining. Please. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This boards is pretty solid about separating bad science from good science- and on a genetic explanation for disparate outcomes in athletics between races/ethnicities/etc, it’s just not solid right now. Yes, the outcomes at the top levels in some sports are pretty stark- but there were some strange oddities in athletics in the past, too, with different groups at the top. Jamaicans are incredibly disproportionately represented among the top sprinters… is this all genetic? At least a significant part is probably due to the Jamaican cultural obsession with the sport of sprinting… there is (probably) no genetic heritage in Jamaica that is not also found in the USA, Brazil, and various African countries. > > So quit whining. Maybe there will be good science on this stuff someday, but not yet. You’re missing the point. We can agree that the science is not settled. But there is plenty of data out there to make it a perfectly legitimate discussion. This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The thesis is unpopular in lefty circles, so many people on the board thinks that means that it is illegitimate. And if the poster has the audacity to disagree and continue, in a few posts he is RACIST!!! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/315 "2013-11-01T00:00:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Are you sure he’s ignoring counter arguments? Yes, and yes to all your other questions. He’s been playing from the exact same playbook, without changing his sources or discredited citations for several years. He’s demonstrated no sign of growth, self-reflection, or understanding. Chen and Chief are in exactly the same boat, unable to question their beliefs. Everyone else who has participated in these threads has learned, grown, and modified their positions as new information as been brought to their attention. Not these three. No one posting in these threads has a problem with the idea that there can and are physiological differences base on genetic makeup. But that’s not what is being proposed by \*\*brazil84 \*\*and his ilk. They have taken something grounded in science and have manage to leap to completely unsupportable conclusions, some that are clearly contradicted by the data. But no growth, no change, no recognition of previous threads where his arguments have been refuted. It’s possible he’s not persuaded by the arguments, but that just means he’s an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/316 "2013-11-01T00:00:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re missing the point. We can agree that the science is not settled. But there is plenty of data out there to make it a perfectly legitimate discussion. This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The thesis is unpopular in lefty circles, so many people on the board thinks that means that it is illegitimate. And if the poster has the audacity to disagree and continue, in a few posts he is RACIST!!! I try to make a point of not attacking motivations (i.e. “racist”) unless it’s overwhelmingly obvious (like that Holocaust denier from a few weeks back). But I do think that believing one race/ethnicity/etc. is inherently inferior in such a fundamental human quality as intelligence is a racist belief. That’s pretty much the most basic definition of racism. It may not mean that someone is a racist, or that they perform any racist acts, but it’s a racist belief. Making judgments about an individual or group (such as “he/she/they are probably less intelligent because of their race”) based on their race is a racist belief. And if people make racist claims, they shouldn’t complain about being called a racist. If claiming that black people are inherently and fundamentally less intelligent, on average, is not a racist claim, then nothing is a racist claim. It doesn’t matter how they came to that belief. That’s the most basic form of racism there is, short of perhaps believing that one race/ethnicity is inherently evil. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/317 "2013-11-01T00:04:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We can agree that the science is not settled. But there is plenty of data out there to make it a perfectly legitimate discussion. There can be a legitimate discussion, but this isn’t it. One side is supplying facts, logic, and the scientific method. The other is providing bad data, illogical leaps, and biased interpretation of results. On a site dedicated to fighting ignorance it’s pretty clear cut case of joining forces the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/318 "2013-11-01T00:06:39Z")
[More](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) on racism, from everyone’s favorite source. It’s right there in the very first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/319 "2013-11-01T00:13:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I try to make a point of not attacking motivations (i.e. “racist”) unless it’s overwhelmingly obvious (like that Holocaust denier from a few weeks back). But I do think that believing one race/ethnicity/etc. is inherently inferior in such a fundamental human quality as intelligence is a racist belief. That’s pretty much the most basic definition of racism. It may not mean that someone is a racist, or that they perform any racist acts, but it’s a racist belief. Making judgments about an individual or group (such as “he/she/they are probably less intelligent because of their race”) based on their race is a racist belief. And if people make racist claims, they shouldn’t complain about being called a racist. > > If claiming that black people are inherently and fundamentally less intelligent, on average, is not a racist claim, then nothing is a racist claim. It doesn’t matter how they came to that belief. That’s the most basic form of racism there is, short of perhaps believing that one race/ethnicity is inherently evil. Two questions, if I may. One simple, one a hypothetical. I hope you’ll answer them both as directly as you can. 1. Do you think that someone who holds the thesis that different races may have different genetic makeups that might predispose one group to outperform others at the elite level, say running or weightlifting is inherently and necessarily racist? 2. The hypothetical: A team of scientists discover a way to accurately measure intelligence. Afterwards they test everyone in each country on the planet. And if you look at the data by country or as a whole, 100% of the time Race A has higher mental scores than Races B, C, and D. Now we don’t have anything that’s even remotely like that in reality, but following the hypothetical, if we did, would a person whop started a thread here stating that Race A is smarter than Races B, C and D be putting forth racist views? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/320 "2013-11-01T00:24:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 1. Do you think that someone who holds the thesis that different races may have different genetic makeups that might predispose one group to outperform others at the elite level, say running or weightlifting is inherently and necessarily racist? Since biological races don’t exist, any thesis based on that assumption is wrong before we start. If they were discussing ethnic groups then they \*might \*have a leg to stand on but that is most certainly not their argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=17)