# Brazil84 doesn't get what's wrong with the claim that majorities of sub-saharan africans are retards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198 "2013-10-25T11:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/41 "2013-10-25T16:14:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think I was brazil-banned two years ago, incidentally. I can’t offhand recall why, though I doubt it matters. You probably made him look stupid. That seems to be the common thread in his “bannings”. Lately, he’s made to look stupid so often that I think he changed his criteria, so now he only puts you on his fake-ignore list if you make him look _profoundly_ stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/42 "2013-10-25T16:23:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That may very well be so, but it misses the point. See below. > > Let’s suppose we have a time machine so it’s possible to go back to 14th century England and interact with the people there. > > And let’s suppose somebody made the following claim: 14th Century Englishmen were just as intelligent as modern Englishmen and this can be established conclusively just from simple observation. > > If I then went back in time to meet these folks, one thing I might notice is that most of them couldn’t read or write. Does this mean that they were stupid? Not necessarily, but at the same time, my simple observations are at best inconclusive. They do not conclusively establish that 14th Century Englishmen were just as intelligent as modern ones. > > I don’t know, but simple observation does not dictate the conclusion that their intelligence is as high as modern English. I’m sorry, but I kind of lost your string of argument in there. Can you distill it down for me? Here’s what I see: your claim that: > [@Brazil84 (per Budget Player Cadet)](#): > > Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. Now I see you saying that despite this claim, it doesn’t apply to English people in the 14th century. I don’t understand why it doesn’t. Can you explain just this point? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/43 "2013-10-25T16:27:44Z")
For those who have been living blissfully unaware, you should know that brazil has been dancing on this line of bullshit for years. He’s not necessarily stupid - I think it takes some brains to avoid crossing the line into banning territory - but he’s one of the nastiest, most disgusting individuals I’ve run across. I think I’m on his stupid “list” too. He used to maintain a blog listing everyone he’s “banned” and why. It’s rather hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/44 "2013-10-25T16:33:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here’s what I see: your claim that: [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16787555&postcount=72)’s the original post about illiteracy, if you’re interested in the context. Fair warning: this Pit thread doesn’t do justice to the level of inanity on display. ETA: Oh, and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16787267&postcount=61)’s his original claim that widespread illiteracy among average people was evidence of low IQ (and hence intelligence) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/45 "2013-10-25T16:46:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now I see you saying that despite this claim, it doesn’t apply to English people in the 14th century. > > I don’t understand why it doesn’t. Can you explain just this point? Yet again, Brazil84 has been taken out of context. I suggest you quote where he said the thing you said he said or start writing him a personal apology. Else you’ll be joining the rest of us on The List. > [@smeghead](#): > > He used to maintain a blog listing everyone he’s “banned” and why. It’s rather hilarious. Srsly? That’s so fucking psychotic it’s actually funny. You must find this blog and share it with the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/46 "2013-10-25T16:47:03Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > For those who have been living blissfully unaware, you should know that brazil has been dancing on this line of bullshit for years. He’s not necessarily stupid - I think it takes some brains to avoid crossing the line into banning territory - but he’s one of the nastiest, most disgusting individuals I’ve run across. > > I think I’m on his stupid “list” too. He used to maintain a blog listing everyone he’s “banned” and why. It’s rather hilarious. It’s still there though he hasn’t done anything with it for a few years. No one would talk to him it seems. Or he banned them all for violating his rules of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/47 "2013-10-25T16:50:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Showing your age. 🙂 > > [Garrett Morris] > SHOWING YOUR AGE!!! > [/Garrett Morris] And what’s with all this talk about Franco-American spaghetti being dead? Of course, it’s dead. It’s in a can. How could it be… What’s that? Francisco Franco? Well, that’s different. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/48 "2013-10-25T16:51:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Does this mean that they were stupid? Not necessarily, but at the same time, my simple observations are at best inconclusive. The key point is that your observations were “simple”, ie, the product of a clearly inferior mind. Conversation, reasoning, observation of function are more than enough to ascertain the relative intelligence of a group of people. The fact that you admit that you would be unable to draw plain and logical conclusions leaves us with the notion that you’re below average intelligence, perhaps at the level of the disabled. How you manage to string simple declarative sentences together is quite admirable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/49 "2013-10-25T16:51:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yet again, Brazil84 has been taken out of context. I suggest you quote where he said the thing you said he said or start writing him a personal apology. Else you’ll be joining the rest of us on The List. Done: > [@From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/72): > > Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/50 "2013-10-25T16:52:08Z")
> [@Charredcasm](#): > > Brrraaaiiiii…nevermind. Honey, you were looking for them in the wrong place. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/51 "2013-10-25T17:14:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t know, but simple observation does not dictate the conclusion that their intelligence is as high as modern English. How much time have you spent observing the people of 14th century England? How much time have you spent observing sub-Saharan Africans? It’s pretty obvious that literacy is not a valid indicator of anything for either group\*. So what other factors would you base your conclusion on? What factors do you think **even sven** based her conclusions on which allowed you to dismiss them? \*14th century English people had no access to books, the printing press having yet to be invented, and no leisure time to appreciate them anyway; sub-Saharan Africans have no access to books and no leisure time either. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/52 "2013-10-25T17:22:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Srsly? That’s so fucking psychotic it’s actually funny. You must find this blog and share it with the rest of us. [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/53 "2013-10-25T17:27:33Z")
I think it’s worth mentioning IQ of 85, which I believe was the topic of the thread in question, wouldn’t typically indicate someone is a “retard.” Traditionally you start seeing people that would be considered “retarded” at 70 and below IQ. An IQ of 85 is one standard deviation below the average, and in various studies it has been presented as an average IQ for persons who are unskilled workers. Basically below average intelligence, not retarded. As for the point made about 14th-century English consider: 1. Due to the lack of education, few people would be expected to learn to read as no one would be teaching them. It is definitely true that in an OECD country with literacy rates of 95-99%+ someone who was born/raised in that country and is illiterate probably has some issue. It could be an intellectual disability for sure, but it could be something else too. But in a society devoid of educational opportunities a specialized skill like literacy isn’t much of an indication of anything. 2. It’s easy to tell English of the 14th century are roughly as intelligent as modern day English. Just look at what they do day-to-day. You’re going to see them engage in various types of skilled and semi-skilled labor. They probably know techniques for butchering/preserving meat, cooking, making their own clothes, making repairs to their homes etc. They also will show basic problem solving skills and self-sufficiency that are hallmarks of things people of normal intellect can do but persons with intellectual disabilities very rarely can, and typically only with significant training and help from a support system. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/54 "2013-10-25T17:27:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. Wow, I hadn’t seen that. That’s some first class crazy there. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/55 "2013-10-25T17:28:19Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. > [@](#): > > **Rule 3** _Coherency._ While debating, I must be able to understand your points if I am to consider them and respond to them \Well, there’s your problem.\ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/56 "2013-10-25T17:31:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think it’s worth mentioning IQ of 85, which I believe was the topic of the thread in question, wouldn’t typically indicate someone is a “retard.” Traditionally you start seeing people that would be considered “retarded” at 70 and below IQ. An IQ of 85 is one standard deviation below the average, and in various studies it has been presented as an average IQ for persons who are unskilled workers. Basically below average intelligence, not retarded. The 85 is supposedly for African-Americans. This thread is talking about **Brazil84** ’s claims of 70 IQ for sub-Saharan Africans in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/57 "2013-10-25T17:34:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > \Well, there’s your problem.\ More like \ I reject your reality and substitute my own. \ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/58 "2013-10-25T17:35:01Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. Yep, that is the one, as I pointed before: whoever posted in his blog stopped doing so in 2010, now it is just cobwebs so even in his nowhere-man territory he is not getting any attention, the poor thing does not even have a [Ringo](http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=88) to take him somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/59 "2013-10-25T17:36:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think it’s worth mentioning IQ of 85, which I believe was the topic of the thread in question, wouldn’t typically indicate someone is a “retard.” Per the other thread, that was the assumed IQ for African Americans, after interbreeding with white people. Subsaharan Africans who had not interbred with white people were supposed to have an IQ of 70. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/60 "2013-10-25T17:38:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. That’s fucking mental. At the rate that he’s adding people to his “banned” list, it’s a miracle he’s not just talking to himself at this point. Or maybe he is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=4)