# Brazil84 doesn't get what's wrong with the claim that majorities of sub-saharan africans are retards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198 "2013-10-25T11:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/61 "2013-10-25T17:50:26Z")
“Be the first to like this.” There’s still time! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/62 "2013-10-25T17:54:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You are lying scumbag. Welcome to my ignore list, liar. If I call you an overtly racist douchenozzle, can I get on the list too? Please? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/63 "2013-10-25T18:02:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Per the other thread, that was the assumed IQ for African Americans, after interbreeding with white people. Subsaharan Africans who had not interbred with white people were supposed to have an IQ of 70. Well, after reading that whole thread I’d say not quite. He never actually makes it known whether or not he believes sub-Saharan Africans have an average IQ of 70. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/64 "2013-10-25T18:03:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. Waitaminute, who was \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/65 "2013-10-25T18:05:20Z")
> [@Heehaw Jones](#): > > Waitaminute, who was \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*? Yeah, it looks like they were redacted somehow. The reasons are still funny, though. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/66 "2013-10-25T18:06:17Z")
> [@Heehaw Jones](#): > > Waitaminute, who was \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*? He was \*\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* but he had a name change a couple of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/67 "2013-10-25T18:20:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well, after reading that whole thread I’d say not quite. He never actually makes it known whether or not he believes sub-Saharan Africans have an average IQ of 70. Are you talking about **brazil** , or the OP of the GD thread? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/68 "2013-10-25T18:41:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. Sweet holy fuck. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/69 "2013-10-25T18:49:01Z")
Did someone lose their crazy? "Cause I know where there is an abundance. What’s funny about the blog is the amount of effort and the number of words used just to emphasize the crazy. The guy on the corner shouting out random things like “WONDER BREAD” cuts to crazy in only a few words. Brazil84 felt the need for that ridiculous screed to get there. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/70 "2013-10-25T18:52:41Z")
I have no clue what my IQ is, but I sure as hell hope it’s higher than 84. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/71 "2013-10-25T19:50:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How much time have you spent observing the people of 14th century England? How much time have you spent observing sub-Saharan Africans? It’s pretty obvious that literacy is not a valid indicator of anything for either group\*. So what other factors would you base your conclusion on? What factors do you think **even sven** based her conclusions on which allowed you to dismiss them? > > \*14th century English people had no access to books, the printing press having yet to be invented, and no leisure time to appreciate them anyway; sub-Saharan Africans have no access to books and no leisure time either. I’m not quite old enough to have observed the Middle Ages, but I _did_ live in Africa for three years. I can say without reservation that those folks who were afforded an education, whether in book-learning or technical trades, performed every bit as well as their first-world counterparts. The Africans who worked for me were mostly tradesmen and laborers. The tradesmen were as good as any I’ve seen anywhere and had a good understanding of their craft, given the schools available to them. My Malian engineer was educated at the University of Arizona and spoke three languages. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/72 "2013-10-25T20:16:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Are you talking about **brazil** , or the OP of the GD thread? **Brazil84** , the closest I found was him saying this in response to the OP questioning why African-Americans have IQ of 85 but sub-Saharan Africans have IQ of 70: > [@](#): > > I would guess it’s because African-Americans have the advantage of growing up in a country with far better nutrition; education; and sanitation than that of most black Africans. I guess there is perhaps an “implicit acceptance” of the premise in his response there, but that’s as close I think as he ever got to saying what he thinks about the actual IQ of persons from sub-Saharan Africa. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/73 "2013-10-25T21:58:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry, but I kind of lost your string of argument in there. > > Can you distill it down for me? I’m not sure how to make it clearer. The key point is that there are two distinct questions: (1) Do Africans have very low average IQs? (2) Is it obvious just from simple observation of Africans that they do not have very low average IQs? Or to put it another way, there are two distinct claims being made: (1) Africans do NOT have very low average IQs. (2) This fact is obvious merely from simple observation of Africans. Obvious enough that any evidence to the contrary, such as test results, can be disregarded. Ok, now consider the observation that there is widespread illiteracy among Africans. This is weak evidence that (1) is false. As you say, there are other plausible explanations for widespread illiteracy in Africa. It’s just one piece of evidence which, standing alone, does not permit a reasonable inference that Africans have very low average IQs. But at the same time, it’s good evidence against (2). If you observe Africans and see weak evidence that they have low intelligence, then it’s not reasonable to conclude that they obviously do not have low intelligence. > [@](#): > > Now I see you saying that despite this claim, it doesn’t apply to English people in the 14th century. > > I don’t understand why it doesn’t. Can you explain just this point? Evidence is not the same thing as proof. If all you have is weak evidence of X, it’s not reasonable to conclude that X is true. But at the same time, it’s not reasonable to conclude that X is false. In that case, what you have is inconclusive evidence. * * * Let me ask you this: Let’s suppose you have two groups of people, A and B. Group B has very high literacy rates. Group A has low literacy rates. Can you reasonably conclude that the average IQ of Group B is higher than that of Group A? Can you reasonably conclude that the average IQ of Group B is roughly the same as that of Group A? In my opinion, the answer to both questions is “no.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/74 "2013-10-25T21:59:48Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Using it to question **even sven** ’s argument on the other hand is just irredeemably stupid. Why? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/75 "2013-10-25T22:02:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And yet her point is entirely valid. > > You can tell if someone has an IQ of 70. 70 is not “kind of slow.” It’s mentally retarded. If you were to find yourself in an entire country of people whose IQs averaged 70, it would be extremely obvious. The country would not be poor, or Third World; it would be completely non-functional and everyone would die in a couple of months or run away. Well what average national IQ would result in the degree of non-functionality present in most sub-Saharan African countries? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/76 "2013-10-25T22:03:22Z")
> [@Telemarked for Death](#): > > In other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead! [**Telemarked** whiffs zombie stench and feels something tap him on the shoulder] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/77 "2013-10-25T22:04:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well what average national IQ would result in the degree of non-functionality present in most sub-Saharan African countries? Not enough is even known about the concept of IQ or what, if anything, it measures to allow any meaningful answer to that question. Furthermore, obviously, a great many cultural, social, political, historical, economic, and/or environmental factors completely unrelated to “average national IQ” can serve to render a society non-functional. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/78 "2013-10-25T22:05:07Z")
You are assuming we know nothing else about Africans (or really the world generally). That might be true of you, but is not for most of us. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/79 "2013-10-25T22:11:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Furthermore, obviously, a great many cultural, social, political, historical, economic, and/or environmental factors completely unrelated to “average national IQ” can serve to render a society non-functional. Which we know because many societies have grown non-functional or grown functional or grown better-functional, collapsed or recovered/improved, without any significant changes in their gene-pools. Whatever “average national IQ” is, it is something that has risen one standard deviation in many Third-World countries since WWII, using the same gene-pool as before the war, but blessed with improved nutrition, health, sanitation and education. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/80 "2013-10-25T22:14:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You are assuming we know nothing else about Africans (or really the world generally). To an extent you are right – I focused on literacy to the exclusion of other issues. But you need to keep in mind the context of the argument I was responding to. **even sven** ’s argument was basically as follows: 1. Anyone who visits Africa will see, just from simple observation, that the people there are “fairly ordinary” 2. It is impossible for a group of people who are “fairly ordinary” to have very low average intelligence. 3. Therefore simple observation conclusively refutes any claim that Africans have very low average intelligence. **even sven** ’s argument hinged on the concept of “fairly ordinary.” The example of widespread illiteracy calls this concept into question. From the perspective of the West, it’s a bit odd to characterize widespread illiteracy as “fairly ordinary.” Of course **even sven** is the master of her argument and she is entitled to define the phrase “fairly ordinary” any way she wants. However she refused to offer a definition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=5)