# Brazil84 doesn't get what's wrong with the claim that majorities of sub-saharan africans are retards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198 "2013-10-25T11:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/81 "2013-10-25T22:21:27Z")
So is capacity for literacy genetic? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/82 "2013-10-25T22:22:36Z")
You still aren’t getting it. Unless you think sub-Saharan Africans _couldn’t_ learn to read if they had access to education, none of this tells us anything. ETA: sort of beaten to the punch by Mr. Ekers. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/83 "2013-10-25T22:22:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yeah, it looks like they were redacted somehow. The reasons are still funny, though. I’m pretty sure they weren’t redacted, they were always \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* and \*\*\*\* \*\*\*\* on his blog. Brazilnut was so thorough in banning people from the internet that he removed their very names from existence. Come to think of it, I miss him calling putting people on ignore as banning them. It really drove home what a delusional nutbag he is. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/84 "2013-10-25T22:43:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I guess there is perhaps an “implicit acceptance” of the premise in his response there, but that’s as close I think as he ever got to saying what he thinks about the actual IQ of persons from sub-Saharan Africa. Just out of curiosity, any particular reason for even a half-hearted defense of this ass nugget? At any rate, we’ve done this dance with Brazzers too many times now. If you have an entire evening to kill and wish for a slight improvement over self-immolation, go nuts with last year’s [Omnibus Asshole Racist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653465) pit thread. There are a few other threads of the same ilk that I have absolutely no desire to revisit. There’s no doubt what he thinks about sub-Saharan Africans at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/85 "2013-10-25T22:51:17Z")
Guys, it isn’t just illiteracy that brazil84 is using to deduce that Africans are unintelligent. It’s also the sanitation. Does the link between sanitation and intelligence have to be spelled out for us? I mean, come on! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/86 "2013-10-25T22:56:10Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Here’s the page.](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) The comments on his “Rules of Debate” are him denoting who he’s ignored and why. It’s hilarious. > [@](#): > > Rule 9 Badge-flashing If we are debating on a message board where you have moderator or administrative type powers, you are not allowed to exercise your powers in an abusive, unfair or biased way. Oh, of course, that would **never** happen **here!** 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/87 "2013-10-25T22:59:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think it’s worth mentioning IQ of 85, which I believe was the topic of the thread in question, wouldn’t typically indicate someone is a “retard.” Traditionally you start seeing people that would be considered “retarded” at 70 and below IQ. That would make “borderline retarded” the **average** IQ in SS-Africa, if the assertion is correct that 70 is the average IQ there. Does anyone here, even **brazil84,** really care to defend the proposition that at least half the people of Africa are what would be considered “retards” here? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/88 "2013-10-25T23:14:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well what average national IQ would result in the degree of non-functionality present in most sub-Saharan African countries? There isn’t one, because the evidence does not suggest that poorer countries are the way they are because of a lack of intelligence on the part of the individuals who live there. An average IQ of 70 would not mean “bad economy.” It would mean a complete and total lack of any “economy” at all beyond hunter-gatherer society, if that. The Irish are on average much richer than the Polish, but it would seem strange indeed to claim they have higher IQs. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/89 "2013-10-25T23:15:48Z")
If you believe IQ indicates actual intelligence then given the Flynn effect if you go back a hundred years Americans were retarded. Given malnutrition and disease the 14th century Englishmen were hitting themselves in the head with hammers. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/90 "2013-10-25T23:25:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There isn’t one, because the evidence does not suggest that poorer countries are the way they are because of a lack of intelligence on the part of the individuals who live there. I’m not asking about poverty; I’m asking about functionality. You’ve already asserted that there is a relationship between national average IQ and functionality. You’ve claimed that a country with an average IQ of 70 would be “completely non-functional” I’m simply asking you what average IQ would result in a country which is functional to the degree of your typical sub-Saharan African country. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/91 "2013-10-25T23:51:39Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > “Be the first to like this.” > > There’s still time! I almost did. It was a silly internet impulse…FIRST! But I did not, and can say that I’m glad that it’s virginity is still intact! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/92 "2013-10-25T23:52:49Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > No, I brought up widespread illiteracy in order to question **even sven** ’s argument that simple observation is sufficient to conclusively refute any claim that Africans have very low intelligence. > > Of course I expected idiots to wander in and misconstrue my argument, which you did – even though I made very clear I was not making the argument you pretended I made. > > Rather than apologize, you now double down so I can only conclude that you intentionally misconstrued my argument. > > You are lying scumbag. Welcome to my ignore list, liar. And I once again must point out you violated your own rules. You are required to first ask for clarification, to make sure you aren’t misunderstanding, and then give them a chance to retract. This is the reason I don’t support your stupid rules. There are times where it’s better to not engage with someone, and to inform of this so they don’t waste their time. But you don’t get to change how you go about it randomly based on your own feelings. That’s just you using your own feelings to ignore facts, the very thing you accuse everyone else of doing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/93 "2013-10-26T00:00:44Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not asking about poverty; I’m asking about functionality. You’ve already asserted that there is a relationship between national average IQ and functionality. No, I did not. What I am saying is that IF there was a country where the average IQ was 70,\* there would be no functionality at all\*. It’s a hypothetical. There is no such country. > [@](#): > > You’ve claimed that a country with an average IQ of 70 would be “completely non-functional” I’m simply asking you what average IQ would result in a country which is functional to the degree of your typical sub-Saharan African country. There isn’t an IQ that would cause the phenomena we see in typical sub-Saharan countries. Those conditions are not a product of IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/94 "2013-10-26T02:15:47Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m simply asking you what average IQ would result in a country which is functional to the degree of your typical sub-Saharan African country. The US is the world’s most powerful country. Given that, what’s the average IQ in America? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/95 "2013-10-26T02:53:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And I once again must point out you violated your own rules. You are required to first ask for clarification, to make sure you aren’t misunderstanding, and then give them a chance to retract. I think that technically you are right here, but here’s what I said to him in the other thread: > [@](#): > > Lol, just as I expected and predicted in Post #89, my argument has been misconstrued. > > I am happy to debate with you, but please read my posts carefully and respond to the points I actually make. So I made it clear to him that he had misconstrued my argument and asked him politely to stop it. I even pointed him to my post where I explained what I was NOT arguing. He then repeated his misconstruction in this thread. So even though I didn’t ask him to “quote me,” I gave him a fair chance to withdraw his strawman attack. It would have been futile to give him a chance to quote me so it’s arguably close enough. So even though you are technically correct, it would be silly at this point to give him a chance to do something impossible. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/96 "2013-10-26T02:54:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure how to make it clearer. > > The key point is that there are two distinct questions: > > (1) Do Africans have very low average IQs? > > (2) Is it obvious just from simple observation of Africans that they do not have very low average IQs? > > Or to put it another way, there are two distinct claims being made: > > (1) Africans do NOT have very low average IQs. > > (2) This fact is obvious merely from simple observation of Africans. Obvious enough that any evidence to the contrary, such as test results, can be disregarded. > > Ok, now consider the observation that there is widespread illiteracy among Africans. This is weak evidence that (1) is false. As you say, there are other plausible explanations for widespread illiteracy in Africa. It’s just one piece of evidence which, standing alone, does not permit a reasonable inference that Africans have very low average IQs. > > But at the same time, it’s good evidence against (2). If you observe Africans and see weak evidence that they have low intelligence, then it’s not reasonable to conclude that they obviously do not have low intelligence. > > Evidence is not the same thing as proof. If all you have is weak evidence of X, it’s not reasonable to conclude that X is true. But at the same time, it’s not reasonable to conclude that X is false. In that case, what you have is inconclusive evidence. > > * * * > > Let me ask you this: Let’s suppose you have two groups of people, A and B. Group B has very high literacy rates. Group A has low literacy rates. > > Can you reasonably conclude that the average IQ of Group B is higher than that of Group A? > > Can you reasonably conclude that the average IQ of Group B is roughly the same as that of Group A? > > In my opinion, the answer to both questions is “no.” OK. Now where do these paper towel tubes come into play? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/97 "2013-10-26T02:58:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No, I did not. What I am saying is that IF there was a country where the average IQ was 70,\* there would be no functionality at all\*. It’s a hypothetical. So it’s a hypothetical, so what? You are still asserting a relationship between average IQ and functionality. Perhaps a slightly different question will shed some light on things: Roughly speaking, what is the minimum national average IQ to avoid having a “no functionality” situation? Also, why exactly is it that a country with average IQ of 70 would have “no functionality”? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/98 "2013-10-26T03:05:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Also, why exactly is it that a country with average IQ of 70 would have “no functionality”? You’ve just proven it’s possible to have an IQ of 70 and be functional. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/99 "2013-10-26T03:43:58Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Also, why exactly is it that a country with average IQ of 70 would have “no functionality”? Because the country’s population would be mentally retarded. There would be essentially no chance ANYTHING could function. Spend some time around some developmentally disabled adults and ask yourself if a country could function at all, even poorly, if that’s what the people there were like. It can’t be said with a straight face. It’s ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198/100 "2013-10-26T03:52:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Also, why exactly is it that a country with average IQ of 70 would have “no functionality”? I’ve spent some time in Nigeria. I assure you that everyone I encountered there is much much smarter than you. If you ever went there, within two hours you would find yourself trussed up in a sack and sold for parts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brazil84-doesnt-get-whats-wrong-with-the-claim-that-majorities-of-sub-saharan-africans-are-retards/672198.md?page=6)