# Breaking a sport (swimming) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 10, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807 "2008-03-10T04:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/1 "2008-03-10T04:11:47Z")
What would happen to competitive swimming, if people figure out a way to smash all the swim records using a technique that isn’t swimming? For example, suppose someone figured out a way to reduce friction enough that it is faster to kick to the other end than swim there. Overnight, would all swimmers train leg strength exclusively? Would there be any need for different strokes? If this person swept all the Olympic medals, would they be congratulated as an innovator, or branded a cheat? ---
**Author:** ![jacquilynne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jacquilynne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacquilynne)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/2 "2008-03-10T04:25:46Z")
There already are different stroke categories in swimming – breaststroke, backstroke, butterfly and freestyle. Breaststroke, backstroke and butterfly all have specific rules for the stroke being swum on form. The freestyle, much like it sounds, is freestyle – if someone invented a powerhouse new stroke that shattered all the world records, they’d swim it in the freestyle events, where it would presumably be permitted as long as it met the general rules, like not being submerged for more than 15 meters after start and turn. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/3 "2008-03-10T04:26:11Z")
I’m sure they’d just prohibit the use of that technique. It’d be a hell of a lot easier to win a boxing match if you kicked your opponent in the nuts, but you’re not allowed to. ---
**Author:** ![jacquilynne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jacquilynne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacquilynne)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/4 "2008-03-10T04:30:10Z")
I just had a thought that you might be interested in the history of the Fosbury Flop. It’s a high jump technique that was pretty much totally different from what other world class jumpers were using at the time, and Dick Fosbury used it to crush records and win medals in Mexico City in 68. It very quickly became the de facto standard technique in high jumping. There’s tons of information on it out there that’s easy to google. ---
**Author:** ![Mongo\_Ponton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Mongo\_Ponton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mongo_Ponton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/5 "2008-03-10T04:45:11Z")
This is kind of happening now in the sport of sailing. The innovation of the foiling Moths has taken the speed to a level that has no relevance to a regular sailboat. The boat actually comes up out of the water and just a few inches of keel and rudder with a bulb on the end remains submerged. [These things scream!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPtQ_WOV3HY) I’d like to build one but it’s not in the toy budget right now. Search for “foiling moths” on youtube and there are a bunch of videos. Mostly from Australia. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/6 "2008-03-10T04:52:31Z")
[QUOTE=jacquilynne] There already are different stroke categories in swimming – breaststroke, backstroke, butterfly and freestyle. Breaststroke, backstroke and butterfly all have specific rules for the stroke being swum on form. The freestyle, much like it sounds, is freestyle – if someone invented a powerhouse new stroke that shattered all the world records, they’d swim it in the freestyle events, where it would presumably be permitted as long as it met the general rules, like not being submerged for more than 15 meters after start and turn. [/QUOTE] I guess I was thinking someone would make it across in a single kick off the pool wall. Is it permissible to use zero strokes? (the swimmer’s head could just barely break the surface to get around the submerged rule) ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/7 "2008-03-10T05:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I’m sure they’d just prohibit the use of that technique. It’d be a hell of a lot easier to win a boxing match if you kicked your opponent in the nuts, but you’re not allowed to. [/QUOTE] **Argent Towers** , I think you’re on to something. There seems to be [no such rule](http://www.usms.org/rules/) in swimming. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/8 "2008-03-10T05:58:29Z")
[QUOTE=The King of Soup] **Argent Towers** , I think you’re on to something. There seems to be [no such rule](http://www.usms.org/rules/) in swimming. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > 102.15.6 Obstructing another swimmer by swimming across the lane or otherwise interfering with the swimmer shall disqualify the offender, subject to the > discretion of the referee. I’d guess kicking another swimmer in the nuts would count as “interfering”. Interestingly, they do specifically ban freestyle swimmers from getting out of the pool during the race. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/9 "2008-03-10T06:07:13Z")
[QUOTE=Garfield226] I’d guess kicking another swimmer in the nuts would count as “interfering”. Interestingly, they do specifically ban freestyle swimmers from getting out of the pool during the race. [/QUOTE] The answer is obvious. Kick them in the nuts before the start, while they are on the blocks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/10 "2008-03-10T07:04:24Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] The answer is obvious. Kick them in the nuts before the start, while they are on the blocks. [/QUOTE] Actually, that’s what I was thinking of, because attempting such a move while in the water would be much less effective anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/11 "2008-03-10T07:21:30Z")
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the butterfly stroke was first used in the breaststroke competition. It was much faster than the breaststroke while still technically being a breaststroke by the rules that existed at the time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/12 "2008-03-10T07:26:18Z")
If you read through all those rules that were linked by **King of Soup** there are extensive rules on turning (i.e that ‘kicking off the wall’), brief reading shows that there are different ones for each stroke, and I remember being told by swimmers that it is precisely because it IS easier to make an awesome aerodynamic kick off the wall. I vaguely remembered there was a rule in there about how long you could be under water but I don’t see it immediately. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/13 "2008-03-10T07:53:08Z")
Yes there are certainly rules against staying under water too long. There are ropes with flags suspended over the pool 15 metres from either end. Backstrokers must surface at the start and each turn before they reach the rope. This was introduced to stop “submarining”, the practice of some swimmers who could go much faster underwater than on the surface. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/14 "2008-03-10T10:30:47Z")
The OP’s scenario did in fact happen, with the banning of the “submarine/dolphin” backstroke kick, or more precisely its limitation to 15 metres. Until they limited that technique there was a brief period where swimmers who has mastered it were spending much of the backstroke race not actually doing a backstroke. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/15 "2008-03-10T13:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=Manduck] I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the butterfly stroke was first used in the breaststroke competition. It was much faster than the breaststroke while still technically being a breaststroke by the rules that existed at the time. [/QUOTE] According to [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_stroke) it first started around the mid 1930s. Then they recovered the arms above the water like modern fly. Though the kick was still the breast kick. You are still allowed to do this stroke, called by some the butterfrog, in US Masters since it is a bit easier to at least finish for some people. People did the breast this way until the late 40s early 50s when the butterfly became it’s own stroke. **don’t ask** , we don’t have ropes at the 15 meter mark here in the US, at least none that’s I’ve ever seen. We do have markers on the lane lines though. Swimmers are allowed to stay underwater for 15 meters in free, fly and back. For breast you can stay under as long as you want but you’re only allowed to kick twice and pull once then you must surface. As for the OP there have been recent changes in the breast stroke because someone pushed the rules. [Kitajima](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosuke_Kitajima) He was supposed to have done a butterfly kick off of each turn in his swims. Now there is a rule that allows this. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/16 "2008-03-10T13:16:00Z")
[QUOTE=Edward The Head] **don’t ask** , we don’t have ropes at the 15 meter mark here in the US, at least none that’s I’ve ever seen. We do have markers on the lane lines though. [/QUOTE] I thought that were overhead for all international meets, because as a former backstroker I can tell you it would be hard to spot anywhere else, particularly if you were capable of submarining. Anyway something else to keep an eye out for at the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/17 "2008-03-10T13:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=Mongo Ponton] This is kind of happening now in the sport of sailing. The innovation of the foiling Moths has taken the speed to a level that has no relevance to a regular sailboat. The boat actually comes up out of the water and just a few inches of keel and rudder with a bulb on the end remains submerged. [These things scream!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPtQ_WOV3HY) I’d like to build one but it’s not in the toy budget right now. Search for “foiling moths” on youtube and there are a bunch of videos. Mostly from Australia. [/QUOTE] That’s pretty interesting. If you ever saw the surfing movie “riding giants”, the dude invents a surfboard that does that same thing. It’s a much smoother ride which is necessary for the speeds you go in big wave surfing. There was also a time that the full body skin suits were thought to convey an unfair advantage to swimmers. I’m guessing that for most sports, though, there is more of a concern of equipment making things obsolete rather than technique. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/18 "2008-03-10T13:31:48Z")
We now have a new forum called “The Game Room” for discussion of games and sports, so I’m moving this one. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/19 "2008-03-10T13:50:44Z")
Have a look at [this youtube clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAcP8QY34RQ) of the 200m final in Athens. There are poles and coded markers everywhere. I had never noticed the intricacies of the markers on the lane ropes, we had no such luxuries. Looking at them they seem to mark each 10 metres, plus the 15 metre mark . ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807/20 "2008-03-10T14:26:36Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask] I thought that were overhead for all international meets, because as a former backstroker I can tell you it would be hard to spot anywhere else, particularly if you were capable of submarining. Anyway something else to keep an eye out for at the Olympics. [/QUOTE] We only have the 5 meter flags for backstroke. I’m trying to remember when I did the FINA World’s if they had something or not, but really don’t remember. I’ll have to look at my photos tonight to see if there is anything or not. Speaking of the backstroke flags, there’s a world record holder on our team who didn’t know what the meaning of the colored ends of the lane lines meant. They go out to the same 5 meters the flags go out and are solid in color for the same reason. I don’t know about most people, but by the time I see the solid color I’m to far past them to know the difference. The 15 meter markers are really only one little disk, usually yellow or red. I will look this weekend as we have a meet, but I don’t think there’s any 15 meter line up. I’ll also have to watch the youtube video at home since we can’t see them at work. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-a-sport-swimming/440807.md?page=2)