# Breaking Bad 4.13 "Face Off" 10/9 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130 "2011-10-10T00:22:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/281 "2012-02-03T01:28:24Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > They were berries, I believe. Presumably he got them from the plant he has in his backyard, and either fed them to the kid or snuck them into his food. How the kid got the poison isn’t specified, but it wouldn’t have been impossible. He didn’t switch the poison in the cigarette and hope it would get to the kid, he just took the poison cigarette, poisoned the kid some other way, and let Jesse connect the dots. Yes, we caught the final shot of the berries in Walter’s backyard, so we have no doubt that Walt was behind it. We’re just unsure of the logistics. How did he manage to do that to the kid? He had glimpsed him briefly only once and didn’t seem to have time to go after him even if he had realized what part Brock played in Jesse’s life. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/282 "2012-02-03T04:49:34Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yes, we caught the final shot of the berries in Walter’s backyard, so we have no doubt that Walt was behind it. We’re just unsure of the logistics. How did he manage to do that to the kid? He had glimpsed him briefly only once and didn’t seem to have time to go after him even if he had realized what part Brock played in Jesse’s life. I think the implication is that he’s _much_ more ruthless than he has appeared thus far. We’re seeing now that he’s willing to poison a kid and orchestrate a complicated plot to come out on top. Who remembers some random kid he saw at your house one time and files away the obvious conclusion as leverage to use when he needs to manipulate you? Walter White does. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/283 "2012-02-03T19:17:11Z")
I was disappointed at how they ended the season. When the show began, it was a guy with no criminal experience and a dumbass trying to break into the Meth market. And it went exactly how you would expect. They screwed up, got the crap kicked out of them, didn’t make much money, and almost got killed. This was good. But towards the end it went too far to the ridiculous. The whole poison everyone while throwing up mine was ridiculous. It would never, ever work and it just was ridiculous. Then, the whole poison the kid thing. Just stupidly complex for no apparent reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/284 "2012-02-03T19:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=treis] The whole poison everyone while throwing up mine was ridiculous. It would never, ever work and it just was ridiculous. [/QUOTE] Definitely risky, but Gus isn’t Walt. He’s just as brilliant but he’s been a criminal for a very long time and then whatever the hell he did under Pinochet, so he had balls made of titanium and bigger than boulders. He’s probably been planning this thing for years and experimented with three dozen types of poison and four dozen types of very hard to find tequila just for this moment. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/285 "2012-02-03T21:53:26Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Definitely risky, but Gus isn’t Walt. He’s just as brilliant but he’s been a criminal for a very long time and then whatever the hell he did under Pinochet, so he had balls made of titanium and bigger than boulders. He’s probably been planning this thing for years and experimented with three dozen types of poison and four dozen types of very hard to find tequila just for this moment. There’s fatal flaws though. You are giving 150 pound guys and 350 pound guys the same dose. There’s no reason to expect they will all die at the same time. Secondly, his entire plan hinges on there not being a handful of body guards that pass on the drink. It’s way passed that fine line of “implausibility, but hey it’s TV” and “sheer ridiculousness”. That episode and the last one were a hop, skip, and a leap over that line. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/286 "2012-02-03T22:36:36Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The whole poison everyone while throwing up mine was ridiculous. > [@treis](#): > > There’s fatal flaws though. You are giving 150 pound guys and 350 pound guys the same dose. There’s no reason to expect they will all die at the same time. Secondly, his entire plan hinges on there not being a handful of body guards that pass on the drink. It’s way passed that fine line of “implausibility, but hey it’s TV” and “sheer ridiculousness”. That episode and the last one were a hop, skip, and a leap over that line. I wish I could say that I disagree with these statements about the mass poisoning, but I can’t. Lots of shows pull this kind of stuff because it’s entertaining and dramatic, and they’re forgiven because hey, it’s a TV show. But _Breaking Bad_ is better than that. The writing is better than that. We’ve come to expect such high quality writing, that things that other shows can get away with irritate us. I’m not a script writer so I guess I shouldn’t complain too much. It has to be very difficult to maintain such a high level while also keeping it interesting and entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/287 "2012-02-03T22:47:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > There’s fatal flaws though. You are giving 150 pound guys and 350 pound guys the same dose. There’s no reason to expect they will all die at the same time. Secondly, his entire plan hinges on there not being a handful of body guards that pass on the drink. It’s way passed that fine line of “implausibility, but hey it’s TV” and “sheer ridiculousness”. That episode and the last one were a hop, skip, and a leap over that line. In the interest of fanwanking, he did take a pill first. Presumably it was an antidote, or whatever chemical would slow down the speed of whatever poison he used. As for them all drinking, he did know them in passing. Maybe the boss was the type who demanded everyone party with him. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/288 "2012-02-03T23:28:12Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I was disappointed at how they ended the season. When the show began, it was a guy with no criminal experience and a dumbass trying to break into the Meth market. And it went exactly how you would expect. They screwed up, got the crap kicked out of them, didn’t make much money, and almost got killed. This was good. But towards the end it went too far to the ridiculous. > > The whole poison everyone while throwing up mine was ridiculous. It would never, ever work and it just was ridiculous. Then, the whole poison the kid thing. Just stupidly complex for no apparent reason. Another example of a far out contrivance was in S3, when Walt sees the TV news report about Angela’s brother being shot. He immediately understands who this kid is, that Jesse will react, and then gets in his car and manages to arrive on the scene just as Jesse is about to shoot those two dealers. How did Walt even know where to go? The kid getting poisoned was unnecessary. It shouldn’t have been difficult for Walt to convince Jesse that Gus was responsible for Angela’s brother’s death. That’s all he needed to do. I think the first and second seasons, and most of the third, were some brilliant TV, but contrivances like we saw in S4 are what keep Breaking Bad in my #2 spot (after _The Wire_, which was always planned, never contrived). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/289 "2012-02-04T01:50:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > There’s fatal flaws though. You are giving 150 pound guys and 350 pound guys the same dose. There’s no reason to expect they will all die at the same time. Secondly, his entire plan hinges on there not being a handful of body guards that pass on the drink. It’s way passed that fine line of “implausibility, but hey it’s TV” and “sheer ridiculousness”. That episode and the last one were a hop, skip, and a leap over that line. I don’t really find this implausible. He gave everyone more than enough dose to kill them regardless of weight. He took an antidote beforehand, vomited up, and still was completely out of comission and required emergency medical treatment to survive. I agree that the Brock poisoning is stretching it and probably bad writing, but the cartel takedown seemed realistic to me. Don Eladio’s main bodyguard/assassin didn’t drink, and he starts to move when he sees what’s happening, and Mike kills him. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/290 "2012-02-04T02:01:12Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I think the implication is that he’s _much_ more ruthless than he has appeared thus far. We’re seeing now that he’s willing to poison a kid and orchestrate a complicated plot to come out on top. Who remembers some random kid he saw at your house one time and files away the obvious conclusion as leverage to use when he needs to manipulate you? Walter White does. > [@treis](#): > > I was disappointed at how they ended the season. When the show began, it was a guy with no criminal experience and a dumbass trying to break into the Meth market. And it went exactly how you would expect. They screwed up, got the crap kicked out of them, didn’t make much money, and almost got killed. This was good. But towards the end it went too far to the ridiculous. It’s obvious Walter’s not some ordinary schmo. There are vague references to his Nobel-winning work that got stolen from him by that guy up in Santa Fe. It’s like he’s finally been pushed over the edge now and is using this genius ability of his to these ends. Still would like to know how he delivered the poison to the boy though. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/291 "2012-02-04T14:53:38Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Another example of a far out contrivance was in S3, when Walt sees the TV news report about Angela’s brother being shot. He immediately understands who this kid is, that Jesse will react, and then gets in his car and manages to arrive on the scene just as Jesse is about to shoot those two dealers. How did Walt even know where to go? I don’t like how their relationship evolved either. WW went from not giving the slightest shit about Jesse or really anyone to being BFFs. He killed the dude in the basement, ordered Jesse to kill the Meth heads that robbed him, watched Jesse’s GF die and did nothing, didn’t care at all about his drug dealer being murdered, had Gil killed, and ended up poisoning a kid. Yet when given several opportunities to be rid of Jesse, he didn’t. He had it absolutely golden with Gus. A crap load of money, as much security as one could hope, and an awesome lab. The only problem was his loyalty to Jesse, which is bizarrely out of his character. Obviously the answer is that they didn’t want to end the series, but it is annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/292 "2012-02-04T19:02:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t like how their relationship evolved either. WW went from not giving the slightest shit about Jesse or really anyone to being BFFs. He killed the dude in the basement, ordered Jesse to kill the Meth heads that robbed him, watched Jesse’s GF die and did nothing, didn’t care at all about his drug dealer being murdered, had Gil killed, and ended up poisoning a kid. Yet when given several opportunities to be rid of Jesse, he didn’t. He had it absolutely golden with Gus. A crap load of money, as much security as one could hope, and an awesome lab. The only problem was his loyalty to Jesse, which is bizarrely out of his character. Obviously the answer is that they didn’t want to end the series, but it is annoying. All the deaths were of people Walt had no personal relationship with. It’s not valid to use those as examples of ruthlessness that should have led to his being ok with Jesse being harmed. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/293 "2012-02-04T21:04:31Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > All the deaths were of people Walt had no personal relationship with. It’s not valid to use those as examples of ruthlessness that should have led to his being ok with Jesse being harmed. Jesse didn’t have to be harmed: Gus: “We aren’t the same. You work with a drug addict” Walt: “You’re right, fuck him” And in the case of Gil, Walter clearly liked him as a person. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/294 "2012-02-04T21:30:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Jesse didn’t have to be harmed: > > Gus: “We aren’t the same. You work with a drug addict” > Walt: “You’re right, fuck him” > > And in the case of Gil, Walter clearly liked him as a person. Do you mean Gale? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/295 "2012-02-04T21:32:46Z")
Yes, Gale. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/296 "2012-02-04T22:11:47Z")
Nobody likes ol’ Gil… ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/297 "2012-02-05T04:16:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t like how their relationship evolved either. WW went from not giving the slightest shit about Jesse or really anyone to being BFFs. He killed the dude in the basement, ordered Jesse to kill the Meth heads that robbed him, watched Jesse’s GF die and did nothing, didn’t care at all about his drug dealer being murdered, had Gil killed, and ended up poisoning a kid. Yet when given several opportunities to be rid of Jesse, he didn’t. He had it absolutely golden with Gus. A crap load of money, as much security as one could hope, and an awesome lab. The only problem was his loyalty to Jesse, which is bizarrely out of his character. Obviously the answer is that they didn’t want to end the series, but it is annoying. So you don’t think Walt sees Jesse as a surrogate son? I mean, I think their relationship is pretty much as toxic as any of Walt’s relationships, but I’d say it’s very much in character. As the story progresses, Walt increasingly absolves himself of the responsibilities of his harmful actions, yet he feels the guilt whenever those actions injure Jesse. So, he brings in Jesse closer every time the way a father would because he can’t do that with (or is it to?) Walt Junior. What do you think of the episode with the fly in lab? In the context of their relationship, do you feel that episode just came up empty? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/298 "2012-02-05T07:14:14Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > So you don’t think Walt sees Jesse as a surrogate son? I mean, I think their relationship is pretty much as toxic as any of Walt’s relationships, but I’d say it’s very much in character. As the story progresses, Walt increasingly absolves himself of the responsibilities of his harmful actions, yet he feels the guilt whenever those actions injure Jesse. So, he brings in Jesse closer every time the way a father would because he can’t do that with (or is it to?) Walt Junior. > > What do you think of the episode with the fly in lab? In the context of their relationship, do you feel that episode just came up empty? And don’t forget when he inadvertently called his own son “Jesse,” right after his last beating and when he was doped up on painkillers. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/299 "2012-02-05T17:18:48Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > So you don’t think Walt sees Jesse as a surrogate son? I mean, I think their relationship is pretty much as toxic as any of Walt’s relationships, but I’d say it’s very much in character. As the story progresses, Walt increasingly absolves himself of the responsibilities of his harmful actions, yet he feels the guilt whenever those actions injure Jesse. So, he brings in Jesse closer every time the way a father would because he can’t do that with (or is it to?) Walt Junior. Maybe I missed this emotional depth, but no I didn’t see much of these in their relationship. It’s just bizarre to me. We see this ruthless guy unwilling to part ways with a complete fuck up. Even if Jesse were basically a son to him, and they were like two peas in a pod, I’d still expect Walt to leave him behind in a second. > [@zbuzz](#): > > What do you think of the episode with the fly in lab? In the context of their relationship, do you feel that episode just came up empty? It’s been a while since I’ve seen that episode, so I can’t really comment. Either way, it was after Walt’s decision to insist that Jesse be allowed to work with him. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130/300 "2012-02-05T17:29:29Z")
Plus, he watched Jesse’s girlfriend joke on her own vomit, and when Jesse asked him to go to the go-karts, an obvious plea for help, Walt refused. More than just refuse, he refused with the tone of “Are you F-ing kidding me?”. Those aren’t the actions of a surrogate father. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-4-13-face-off-10-9/599130.md?page=16)