# Breaking Bad 5.14 "Ozymandias" 9/15/13 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893 "2013-09-15T06:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/401 "2013-09-17T15:54:27Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Although Walt loves Jesse in his own twisted way, he has always had a brutal lack of interest in anyone else in Jesse’s life. He still thinks Badger’s name is “Beaver”, when Combo was shot his reaction was “which one was he?”, he purposely manipulated Jesse into breaking up with Andrea, and Brock is nothing more to him than a convenient target for poisoning. The fact that Jesse loved Jane didn’t score her any points in Walt’s book. Not only did it not score any points, it was points against her. I think Walt automatically resents anyone that diverts Jesse’s attention from him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/402 "2013-09-17T16:04:54Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Maybe I have a little inner Heisenberg myself, but Jane is one of the deaths I’ve never really been able to get the hate on for Walt about. He didn’t actually kill her, he let her die, which is a difference that wouldn’t be worth noting if we were talking about a drowning child you could save but we’re talking about a junkie who was blackmailing him and would probably go on seeing him as the Golden Crystal Laying Goose once she ran through the $600,000 he was giving her and Jesse. Not saying it was right… but I understand. Being a junkie isn’t a moral failing. It’s an addiction. Watching her choke and doing nothing was colder than murdering someone who presents you with a life threat. Jane was one of Walt’s most cruel murders, and I do consider it murder. ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/403 "2013-09-17T16:28:05Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Every single performance in that episode was Emmy-worthy, \*including \*the baby. All I know is that the little girls playing Holly each deserve an Oscar. Apparently that scene in the bathroom where Holly starts going “Mama” wasn’t in the script - the baby’s mom was a few feet away so when she started asking for her Bryan Cranston just went with it. Even if they make a special Emmy just so the kids can toddle up on a stage and get recognized for such heart-rending acting. That scene in the fire truck? Damnnn. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/404 "2013-09-17T16:32:33Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Maybe I have a little inner Heisenberg myself, but Jane is one of the deaths I’ve never really been able to get the hate on for Walt about. He didn’t actually kill her, he let her die, which is a difference that wouldn’t be worth noting if we were talking about a drowning child you could save but we’re talking about a junkie who was blackmailing him and would probably go on seeing him as the Golden Crystal Laying Goose once she ran through the $600,000 he was giving her and Jesse. Not saying it was right… but I understand. Not only was Jane someone Jesse cared about, but Jesse blamed himself for her death, and sunk into a depression. Walt supposedly cared about Jesse, but he burdened Jesse with not just grief, but also with guilt. Also, it seems extra cold to me because of how little effort it would have taken to save her. If someone is drowning, then you have to jump in, pull them out, and maybe do CPR. There’s also a distinct chance you could drown if you do try to help them, whether if the water is to strong, or the swimmer’s flailing panic pushes you under water. There’s a lot of situations where saving someone’s life requires effort and danger to the saver. But I believe that all Walt needed to do was move Jane back over to her side and she’d be okay. Maybe call 911 just to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/405 "2013-09-17T16:42:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Not only was Jane someone Jesse cared about, but Jesse blamed himself for her death, and sunk into a depression. Walt supposedly cared about Jesse, but he burdened Jesse with not just grief, but also with guilt. Jesse deserved every ounce of that guilt. He’s more responsible for fucking up Jane’s life than Walk could ever be. ---
**Author:** ![CurrlyD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CurrlyD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurrlyD)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/406 "2013-09-17T16:43:59Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I just had a thought about Hank’s line to Walt: “You’re the smartest guy I’ve ever met, but you’re too stupid to know he made up his mind ten minutes ago.” > > To me, this line is almost a winking nod from Gilligan to the audience about what he did with the ending of the previous episode, and the “did Hank die or not?” arguments that spread among the internet fan base over the last week. Vince is saying “Come on guys, I know you hope it’ll turn out differently but you know I already made up my mind on this.” It has occurred to me that this was Hank’s way of rubbing Walt’s nose in the fact that he was probably going to lose the money. If Walt had kept his mouth shut, Uncle Jack and his associates wouldn’t have known about the money. So Hank got in one last jab at Walt before being murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/407 "2013-09-17T16:46:09Z")
> [@Soylent\_Juicy](#): > > Apparently that scene in the bathroom where Holly starts going “Mama” wasn’t in the script - the baby’s mom was a few feet away so when she started asking for her Bryan Cranston just went with it. Yeah, I just read that last night. That’s unbelievable. I know scenes with little kids tend to drift that direction when they need them to be sad/crying, but that was just perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/408 "2013-09-17T17:11:26Z")
Maybe this should be a separate thread, but is it just me, or does the success of Breaking Bad put The X Files in a different light? It’s a show that was really good on its own in the early years, but it got Vince Gilligan his first TV job and I think it has a real influence on Breaking Bad’s tone- especially in the first few seasons when there was more dark comedy and a little less dark darkness. In fact I just noticed that the first X Files episode I ever saw was one of his (Soft Light). Mighty oaks from acorns or something. > [@Soylent\_Juicy](#): > > Apparently that scene in the bathroom where Holly starts going “Mama” wasn’t in the script - the baby’s mom was a few feet away so when she started asking for her Bryan Cranston just went with it. > [@Munch](#): > > Yeah, I just read that last night. That’s unbelievable. I know scenes with little kids tend to drift that direction when they need them to be sad/crying, but that was just perfect. That’s crazy! Maybe “Holly” can share Moira Walley-Beckett’s upcoming writing Emmy. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/409 "2013-09-17T17:26:12Z")
Jesse will kill Todd and escape. The Nazis won’t have a cook, so they’ll lean on Skylar to get Walt back. Skylar ends up dead at the hands of the Nazis. Kids dead or with Marie. This is the M60 angle. Scorched earth, no need to worry about hitting something unintentional. Kill them all. The ricin is for Jesse. Walt lets Jesse get close to him, knowing Jesse hates his guts over Jane. Jesse kills Walt, but not before Walt pricks him with some ricin. They’ve been trying to sneak it into food and drink all this time, unsuccessfully, but the original tale was the Russian spy (or diplomat or somebody) that got pricked with a tiny amount under the skin. Jesse, with Walt dead, thinks it’s over and goes to see Andrea. Starts to play a video game with Brock and keels over. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/410 "2013-09-17T17:32:42Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Jesse will kill Todd and escape. The Nazis won’t have a cook, so they’ll lean on Skylar to get Walt back. Skylar ends up dead at the hands of the Nazis. Kids dead or with Marie. > > This is the M60 angle. Scorched earth, no need to worry about hitting something unintentional. Kill them all. > > The ricin is for Jesse. Walt lets Jesse get close to him, knowing Jesse hates his guts over Jane. Jesse kills Walt, but not before Walt pricks him with some ricin. They’ve been trying to sneak it into food and drink all this time, unsuccessfully, but the original tale was the Russian spy (or diplomat or somebody) that got pricked with a tiny amount under the skin. > > Jesse, with Walt dead, thinks it’s over and goes to see Andrea. Starts to play a video game with Brock and keels over. > > Or not. Or maybe the whole show is just some autistic kid’s dream ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/411 "2013-09-17T17:36:54Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > the original tale was the Russian spy (or diplomat or somebody) that got pricked with a tiny amount under the skin. [A Bulgarian writer who criticized the government.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov) ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/412 "2013-09-17T18:08:39Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Jesse deserved every ounce of that guilt. He’s more responsible for fucking up Jane’s life than Walk could ever be. Meh, not so much, Jane did a pretty good job of fucking her up life before Jesse showed up. We got to see her darker side when she began negotiating with Walt. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/413 "2013-09-17T18:37:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Maybe this should be a separate thread, but is it just me, or does the success of Breaking Bad put The X Files in a different light? I have a theory that Breaking Bad in part comes out of Vince Gilligan’s desire to get right everything that was wrong with the X-files. The X-files overstayed its welcome, and kept running until everyone was bored with it and the main cast started leaving. Breaking Bad, in contrast, was always designed to have a definite end point in sight, and goes out on a high note. The X-files hit the reset button every episode, and the characters never had any real development in spite of all the weird stuff they experienced. Breaking Bad is hyper-serialized, every action has a consequence, and the characters change in profound and permanent ways. The overarching “mythology” of the X-files (the alien abduction stuff) never really held together, and didn’t go anywhere. The plots on Breaking Bad, on the other hand, are rock solid and meticulously charted out, with clear beginnings, middles and ends, and every single plot thread always connects directly to the main storyline. Anyway, it’s just a theory, as I have no idea what Vince really thinks about the X-files, beyond the few mentions of it on the podcast, where he just says that it was a great job. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/414 "2013-09-17T19:00:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Being a junkie isn’t a moral failing. It’s an addiction. As Gus said, “Never trust a junkie”- disease/addiction or not, many of them do horrible things to get a fix, and she had the ability to destroy literally everything in Walt’s life: his freedom, his family, his money, his reputation, etc… It reminds me of [Seymour’s ethical dilemma with the dentist](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C2oaJYuNCU) in LITTLE SHOP. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/415 "2013-09-17T19:09:07Z")
Hey Acsenray, Vince Gilligan himself described Todd as a psychopath in an EW article. Here’s the quote: GILLIGAN SAYS “For Todd, our lovable yet psychopathic Opie, the heart wants what the heart wants, and Todd’s heart wants Lydia.” [Source](http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/09/08/breaking-bad-vince-gilligan-final-four-episodes-hints/) ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/416 "2013-09-17T19:10:10Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > As Gus said, “Never trust a junkie”- disease/addiction or not, many of them do horrible things to get a fix, and she had the ability to destroy literally everything in Walt’s life: his freedom, his family, his money, his reputation, etc… > > It reminds me of [Seymour’s ethical dilemma with the dentist](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C2oaJYuNCU) in LITTLE SHOP. I agree. I put Jane’s death near the bottom of Walt’s sins. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/417 "2013-09-17T19:12:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That wasn’t really a negotiation: Walt wasn’t in danger in the first place. He thought he was and the result was embarrassing, I agree. But he did manage to talk himself into business partnerships with Gus and Mike and Declan and managed to keep things going with Gus for a while despite the turbulence he and Jesse caused. He can’t do that anymore. It’s essentially dumb luck that he wasn’t killed at To’hajiilee. > > About Jane: she was bad news for Jesse even though she made him happy. And she did try to blackmail Walt- over money Walt was refusing to pay Jesse. The thing that makes Jane’s death shocking is that Walt is able to let someone else’s daughter die so soon after his own daughter is born- after that conversation with (as it turned out) Jane’s father, even. That was one of the key examples of Walt deciding that nothing in the world matters except what he wants. I can see Walt thinking that, if she was alive and with Jesse and all that money to buy drugs with, Jesse was doomed to suffer an inevitable junkie OD death - _one just like Jane was demonstrating right in front of him_. It is not yet obvious that all Walt cares about is Walt’s wishes - it is at least possible to see it as Walt murdering Jane through inaction to preserve Jesse’s life from a woman that Walt has reason to believe is a blackmailing and selfish addict only pretending to love Jesse and really only interested in shooting up with Jesse’s cash. This doesn’t paint Walt as a good guy, but his motives regarding Jane were at least somewhat ambiguous. Naturally, he had a string selfish motive as well. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/418 "2013-09-17T19:30:55Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Hey Acsenray, Vince Gilligan himself described Todd as a psychopath in an EW article. Here’s the quote: > > GILLIGAN SAYS “For Todd, our lovable yet psychopathic Opie, the heart wants what the heart wants, and Todd’s heart wants Lydia.” > > [Source](http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/09/08/breaking-bad-vince-gilligan-final-four-episodes-hints/) That’s different then. Without that comment, you don’t have a basis for diagnosing Todd. I would, however, ask Gilligan to clarify whether he means it literally. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/419 "2013-09-17T19:33:10Z")
> [@stoplight](#): > > Meh, not so much, Jane did a pretty good job of fucking her up life before Jesse showed up. We got to see her darker side when she began negotiating with Walt. She was clean, going to meetings, and employed (albeit by her father) when Jesse showed up. Also, I said nothing about how much she fucked up. She obviously is also at fault for her end. I was only comparing Walt and Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/420 "2013-09-17T19:34:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s different then. Without that comment, you don’t have a basis for diagnosing Todd. I would, however, ask Gilligan to clarify whether he means it literally. Looks to me more like a flippant comment than a diagnosis. Also, Vince Gilligan is a brilliant writer, but not a psychologist. And in any case: Intentional fallacy. There’s plenty of room for interpretation regarding Todd’s mental makeup and moral virtues or lack thereof, no matter what Gilligan says. The same goes for every character on the show. That’s why the show is so much fun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=22)