# Breaking Bad 5.14 "Ozymandias" 9/15/13 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893 "2013-09-15T06:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/421 "2013-09-17T19:37:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s different then. Without that comment, you don’t have a basis for diagnosing Todd. I would, however, ask Gilligan to clarify whether he means it literally. We have his actions as a basis for “diagnosing” Todd. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/422 "2013-09-17T19:38:40Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I have a theory that Breaking Bad in part comes out of Vince Gilligan’s desire to get right everything that was wrong with the X-files. The X-files overstayed its welcome, and kept running until everyone was bored with it and the main cast started leaving. Breaking Bad, in contrast, was always designed to have a definite end point in sight, and goes out on a high note. That’s interesting. It’s not like they planned it this far in advance, but the show probably couldn’t have gone for too much longer because of the cancer and because they always had Walt’s transformation in mind. They did debate doing six seasons vs. five and the first season was compressed by the writers’ strike. Gilligan preferred the five season option because he wanted to nail the ending. Without knowing what happens in the last ~90 minutes, he was absolutely right. > [@](#): > > The X-files hit the reset button every episode, and the characters never had any real development in spite of all the weird stuff they experienced. Mostly true, but it’s worth pointing out that many of the best episodes were one-offs. What really fell down was the longer-term plotting because it wasn’t planned out in advance. Then again people didn’t really expect a TV show to be worked out in advance at that time. I think that’s changed. > [@Malthus](#): > > I can see Walt thinking that, if she was alive and with Jesse and all that money to buy drugs with, Jesse was doomed to suffer an inevitable junkie OD death - _one just like Jane was demonstrating right in front of him_. And there’s a good chance he would’ve been right, although they’d agreed to get clean when they ran away together. But Walt has been too manipulative of Jesse for me to treat it purely as an attempt to save him. He’s kept him close when he needs him and pushed him away when he doesn’t. > [@](#): > > It is not yet obvious that all Walt cares about is Walt’s wishes - it is at least possible to see it as Walt murdering Jane through inaction to preserve Jesse’s life from a woman that Walt has reason to believe is a blackmailing and selfish addict only pretending to love Jesse and really only interested in shooting up with Jesse’s cash. He doesn’t have any particular reason to believe that. He needs Jesse at that moment and she’s in the way. That’s really the only thing that matters. If they’d wanted to run away together at a point Walt and Jesse had been on the outs, he’d have paid them to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/423 "2013-09-17T19:38:42Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > We have his actions as a basis for “diagnosing” Todd. Which is the better way to go about it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/424 "2013-09-17T19:40:35Z")
If Jack’s gang has done the smart thing and left for a tropical country with no extradition treaty with the U.S., it could be that the barrel Jack gave to Walt was Todd’s share of the money. If so, then Jack might be happy to give his nephew the methylamine and warehouse and such so Todd could work on his own fortune, while remaining close to Lydia. I’d be disappointed if the neo-Nazis pulled $70 million out of the ground, and went right on cooking meth, because it would undermine the show’s major characters. The kingpins, Walt and Gus, had very specific motivations for what they were doing, and they ran much deeper than love of money. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/425 "2013-09-17T19:45:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If Jack’s gang has done the smart thing and left for a tropical country with no extradition treaty with the U.S., it could be that the barrel Jack gave to Walt was Todd’s share of the money. If so, then Jack might be happy to give his nephew the methylamine and warehouse and such so Todd could work on his own fortune, while remaining close to Lydia. > > I’d be disappointed if the neo-Nazis pulled $70 million out of the ground, and went right on cooking meth, because it would undermine the show’s major characters. The kingpins, Walt and Gus, had very specific motivations for what they were doing, and they ran much deeper than love of money. I agree. I would find it much more believable if we never see Uncle Jack or his minions again. There is no motivation for them to stay in the meth business. Todd, maybe he does. He wants to be near Lydia and maybe he saw enough of Walt that he wants to be in the “empire business.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/426 "2013-09-17T19:55:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And there’s a good chance he would’ve been right, although they’d agreed to get clean when they ran away together. But Walt has been too manipulative of Jesse for me to treat it purely as an attempt to save him. He’s kept him close when he needs him and pushed him away when he doesn’t. I can’t remember all the details, but does Walt know about this plan to go clean? And even if he does - he can see for himself that they aren’t. > [@](#): > > He doesn’t have any particular reason to believe that. Sure he does. Mostly what he knows about her, is the efficient way she’s gone about blackmailing him. Anyone in his shoes would naturally assume someone that adept at blackmail is equally adept at manipulating an infatuated goof like Jesse. > [@](#): > > He needs Jesse at that moment and she’s in the way. That’s really the only thing that matters. If they’d wanted to run away together at a point Walt and Jesse had been on the outs, he’d have paid them to leave. Sure, but as you know Walt changes, or at least appears to change (and not for the better) as the series goes on. Certainly he has good and sufficient reason to cold-bloodedly want her dead for his own comfort and convenience. However, it is not yet certain that Walt’s journey has yet taken him to a place where he has no ambiguity mixed with his selfishness and pride. Killing Jane (which is what his acts amount to, no question) is a stepping-stone on his downward path … it isn’t totally obvious yet, perhaps not even to himself, that he’s simply cleaning stones out of his shoe, rather than saving his surrogate son’s life. Yet each episode, the rationalizations gets thinner. Does this mean Walt was always nothing but manipulative and selfish from the get-go, and it just gets more evident? Or, rather, is it his choices over time than make him increasingly so? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/427 "2013-09-17T19:57:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > they’d agreed to get clean when they ran away together As Twain might have said: “Quitting heroin is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I’ve done it thousands of times.” Although, kudos to Jesse for getting through rehab and just being back on meth… I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/428 "2013-09-17T20:09:50Z")
Did Jane die before or after Walt had the “don’t give up on your children” with her dad? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/429 "2013-09-17T20:20:39Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Did Jane die before or after Walt had the “don’t give up on your children” with her dad? After. It’s right after that talk that Walt goes back to Jane’s and Jesse’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/430 "2013-09-17T20:39:43Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’d be disappointed if the neo-Nazis pulled $70 million out of the ground, and went right on cooking meth, because it would undermine the show’s major characters. The kingpins, Walt and Gus, had very specific motivations for what they were doing, and they ran much deeper than love of money. Declan was in it for money. And I don’t think I’m willing to accept that Gus was in business just for revenge. He did want revenge on the cartel but he wasn’t the Count of Monte Cristo. The only time he did anything that was against his business interests was when he taunted Hector, and his move against the cartel (which results in the death of Don Eladio as well as Joaquin Salamanca) only happened because his hand was forced. > [@Malthus](#): > > I can’t remember all the details, but does Walt know about this plan to go clean? No. I was just pointing out that it happened (as viewers we’re aware of it). > [@](#): > > Anyone in his shoes would naturally assume someone that adept at blackmail is equally adept at manipulating an infatuated goof like Jesse. I don’t think that assumption is all that natural. It’d be convenient for Walt, though. > [@](#): > > However, it is not yet certain that Walt’s journey has yet taken him to a place where he has no ambiguity mixed with his selfishness and pride. I think the fact that his solutions is letting her die speaks for itself. > [@](#): > > Killing Jane (which is what his acts amount to, no question) is a stepping-stone on his downward path … it isn’t totally obvious yet, perhaps not even to himself, that he’s simply cleaning stones out of his shoe, rather than saving his surrogate son’s life. Yet each episode, the rationalizations gets thinner. Does this mean Walt was always nothing but manipulative and selfish from the get-go, and it just gets more evident? Or, rather, is it his choices over time than make him increasingly so? That’s backward, though: his choices didn’t make him, he made his choices. And Walt has always had a poor grasp of why he does what he does. Maybe he has to face it now that it’s come to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/431 "2013-09-17T22:43:28Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > After. It’s right after that talk that Walt goes back to Jane’s and Jesse’s house. That’s what I thought. At the time it seemed clear to me that he was letting Jane die specifically because she was a bad influence on Jesse. He was trying to help out his surrogate son. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/432 "2013-09-17T23:35:48Z")
We know how Jesse will get away from the Nazis right? a) the first guy Walt kills is Emilio. He kills him by causing a chemical explosion in the RV while supposedly teaching them ‘how to cook his meth formula’. Walt deliberately causes the chemical explosion, runs out of the RV and traps Emilio and Krazy 8 in the RV with deadly phosphine gas. It eventually kills Emilio, and incapacitates Krazy 8. b) Jesse is now a meth cook slave for Todd & his Nazi Uncle Jack. c) Anyone else recall that Jack seemed rather nonchalant about the need for wearing a gas mask during the cook process? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/433 "2013-09-17T23:44:35Z")
Bryan to Walt in about 30 seconds: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vHnC6YVj3WM/hqdefault.jpg "Bryan Cranston shaves his head - The After After Party BTS") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHnC6YVj3WM) ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/434 "2013-09-17T23:56:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > We know how Jesse will get away from the Nazis right? It’s worth noting that Jesse was unconscious when Walt did all of that so he didn’t witness it. Unless Walt went into detail on how he did that, and we never saw him say anything, Jesse wouldn’t know how to go about repeating the event. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/435 "2013-09-18T00:30:32Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > We know how Jesse will get away from the Nazis right? > > a) the first guy Walt kills is Emilio. He kills him by causing a chemical explosion in the RV while supposedly teaching them ‘how to cook his meth formula’. Walt deliberately causes the chemical explosion, runs out of the RV and traps Emilio and Krazy 8 in the RV with deadly phosphine gas. It eventually kills Emilio, and incapacitates Krazy 8. > > b) Jesse is now a meth cook slave for Todd & his Nazi Uncle Jack. > > c) Anyone else recall that Jack seemed rather nonchalant about the need for wearing a gas mask during the cook process? Yes, but Todd was adamant about keeping his gas mask on. Jesse would have to come up with another way to kill Todd. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/436 "2013-09-18T01:01:48Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Regarding Hank’s remark that Walt was too stupid to realize that Jack had made up his mind 10 minutes ago. I wonder if that’s true. I wonder if Walt did realize and was simply trying to redeem himself in Hank’s eyes before he died. Not that he wasn’t genuinely grief stricken, but maybe he knew that Hank was as good as dead and was just feeding his enormous ego by playing the self sacrificing hero. Not at all. Walt offered his entire fortune - everything he’d worked for, his empire, his legacy, to save Hank. That was obviously genuine. His steadfast commitment to his family (even though he unintentionally brings destruction to them) is his only redeeming value. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/437 "2013-09-18T01:26:02Z")
I don’t know how much of it is genuine affection for Hank and how much of it is obsession with the idea of family and that if his family dies he can no longer justify his actions to himself ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/438 "2013-09-18T01:27:28Z")
There’s nothing more he could’ve done or offered to save Hank. He offered everything. That’s genuine affection. He could’ve come up with a rationalization and half-assed trying to save Hank and come up with some reason to be okay with his death. But he didn’t. He offered up his entire empire, and when that gambit failed, he became broken. It obviously wasn’t just to serve his ego. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/439 "2013-09-18T01:53:37Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I don’t know how much of it is genuine affection for Hank and how much of it is obsession with the idea of family and that if his family dies he can no longer justify his actions to himself They’re both mixed in there. Not only is Hank dead, he’s lost his family and the money won’t go to Skyler and the children, so he’s left with the truth at long last. I think what we’re going to see in the next two episodes is Walt trying to protect his family from the consequences of what he’s already done. About the best he can do is break even. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/440 "2013-09-18T02:02:29Z")
Marie deserves some kudos this week. Her first reaction, upon finding out that Walt was arrested, was to visit her sister to immediately reconcile with her. She didn’t go to gloat, she went to tell her she was disappointed in her but knew that deep down she could still be saved from the things Walt had done to her. Her only real caveat was that Skyler destroy every copy of Walt’s “confession”. The fact that she was there when Flynn found out the truth about her Dad was less about getting even with Walt and more about supporting Skyler, and especially Flynn when his world was completely shaken. Marie was there to be with him in his time of need. Despite some of her weaknesses, she absolutely, 100% loves her family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=23)