# Breaking Bad 5.14 "Ozymandias" 9/15/13 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893 "2013-09-15T06:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/441 "2013-09-18T02:54:13Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > Marie deserves some kudos this week. Her first reaction, upon finding out that Walt was arrested, was to visit her sister to immediately reconcile with her. She didn’t go to gloat, she went to tell her she was disappointed in her but knew that deep down she could still be saved from the things Walt had done to her. Her only real caveat was that Skyler destroy every copy of Walt’s “confession”. The fact that she was there when Flynn found out the truth about her Dad was less about getting even with Walt and more about supporting Skyler, and especially Flynn when his world was completely shaken. Marie was there to be with him in his time of need. Despite some of her weaknesses, she absolutely, 100% loves her family. Are you joking with this? She didn’t just happen to be there when Junior found out about Walt. She forced Skyler to tell him. That whole scene was both gloating and power play. She may very well love her sister, but nothing in that scene was about love. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/442 "2013-09-18T02:56:59Z")
The story was over, Walt was arrested and Hank had won. Walt Jr was going to find out in a matter of hours just what kind of man Walt was. Would it be better to hear it from detectives, who undoubtedly were going to pay Skyler a visit, or to hear it from family? Family first, Jr had a right to know what was going on from people he cared about before finding it out from people who he didn’t know at all ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/443 "2013-09-18T02:57:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s one thing to miss it while watching the show the first time, but to have it explained and still call it stupid… > > \< . . . \> > > “Stupid”? It’s the whole fabric of the character and the show. Look, as much as I enjoy the irony inherent in assuming I’ll come to see the brilliance of Walt’s plan if it’s just explained a bit better and as much as I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on what you think I might have over looked, I’ll cut to the chase and point out you mostly glossed over what I actually thought was dumb. Namely, Walt’s rant being a ruse to throw off the cops and exculpate Skyler. You say, “Perhaps the cover he is giving her won’t hold up.” In my mind there is no way the cover given there would hold up. None. **E0D** asked how anyone could not understand that it was a ruse, and that’s how. It didn’t occur to me because even now, knowing that was almost certainly the intent, I think it has zero chance of succeeding and it was foolish of Walt to think it would. Honestly, to the extent that Skyler has been involved in Walt’s affairs and how far we’ve seen her morals fall, if that gets her off the hook would you be satisfied? And it’s not the most he can do, as you say. The most he can do is turn himself in. He could cut a deal, fess up to what he’s done and testify against the Nazi’s, Lydia, et. al. in exchange for his family’s safety/exoneration; or take all the blame and tell them that he threatened to kill Skyler if she didn’t do what he said. It doesn’t make for great TV, but if he really truly wanted to protect the family that turned him out and fears him that’s what he’d do. As you said, he was willing to do as much for Hank. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/444 "2013-09-18T03:29:18Z")
It’s interesting. Skyler was ready to give it all up to the police. With the rant on the phone, Walt is telling her: “I’ll take the fall. You can get away, maybe, if you start covering your tracks right now.” What would be the happier ending, though? If she gets away with it, she’ll still be on the dark side, morally speaking, still implicated in Walt’s business. If she comes clean to the police about the money laundering and about what she knows, she’ll go to jail, I suppose, but she’ll have a clean soul. According to the rules of the traditional morality play, she must repent, choose the light in the end, and be saved that way. The same goes for Walt. It still remains to be seen whether the show will go with that ending, or subvert it. (I’ll be up for a discussion about which characters go to Heaven versus Hell after this is all said and done. I’m not too optimistic about Hank. At the end of the day, he chose his pride over doing the right thing, and launched his rogue investigation instead of giving what he had to the DEA. Had he done the latter, Hank’s career might have been over, but Walt would likely have been locked up now, and Hank wouldn’t have gotten himself and his partner killed.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/445 "2013-09-18T03:37:42Z")
There is no way that they don’t figure out about the money laundering. Regardless of whether or not Skyler faces prison, no one will be having an A-1 day anymore. ---
**Author:** ![all\_timestamps\_displayed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/958977/32.png) [@all\_timestamps\_displayed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/all_timestamps_displayed)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/446 "2013-09-18T05:50:27Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > (I’ll be up for a discussion about which characters go to Heaven versus Hell after this is all said and done. I’m not too optimistic about Hank. At the end of the day, he chose his pride over doing the right thing, and launched his rogue investigation instead of giving what he had to the DEA. Had he done the latter, Hank’s career might have been over, but Walt would likely have been locked up now, and Hank wouldn’t have gotten himself and his partner killed.) His pride-driven decisions were very reminiscent of Walt’s - not that he went evil himself, though he kind of did at times, but how the need to win, and not just win but be the one who won, and have it known he was. And, just like Walt/Heisenberg he was fueled by his own constructed identity & narrative. Walt, not Heisenberg, begged for Hank’s life. But it was ASAC Schrader who got shot. “Say my name” = “My name is ASAC Schrader” Also, Todd is really interesting. He’s not a psychopath, though. More like a regular, earnest kid who wants to do good, who just happens to live in a completely alternative, fucked up, reality. The kind of kid who can be trusted with that puppy you got him because he’s totally dedicated to taking real good care of it… Except instead of a puppy little Todd got a meth operation, and taking real good care of it means enslaving someone. Todd’s not cold, predatory, manipulative, glib, labile, remorseless, no respect for social norms & mores etc. He is capable of caring for people, showing genuine respect etc… But he comes from a reality where you shoot a kid who witnesses your train robbery, where taking a guy back home to torture for information is just what’s done and preferably by someone with whom there’s “history,” and where after you do that you enslave him to cook meth for you. Todd’s not evil, his entirely reality is “evil,” but he operates within it respectfully, certainly with regard to its own social mores. Like all the other characters, he’s done some bad things but unlike Walt and Jesse he never had to sell anyone a huge line of bullshit over the things he’d done. Of the main characters who have done bad things he’s actually the only one who hasn’t “broke bad” by violating his code - his morals are way fucked up, but consistent with his fucked up reality, and intact. It’s interesting to see how the dirt spreads… even Flynn lied to the cops about who pulled the knife… ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/447 "2013-09-18T05:59:33Z")
Yeah, I suspect that Todd could have been a good, upstanding citizen if he’d had a different history. It seems that the kid has basically been raised by rabid wolves, at least if his uncle is anything to go by. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/448 "2013-09-18T06:48:57Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Walt’s choice of wheels over the seasons provides a nice bit of symbolism for his criminal career. He switches from the Aztek to the bad-ass Chrysler 300 when his empire is on the rise. When he ends up in that piece-of-crap old truck in this episode, it’s the clearest sign of all that everything has gone down the drain. The Chrysler 300 has all its styling cues from Bentleys. The Gray Matter people drive Bentleys. How would a fellow not in the meth business in New Hampshire know about the meth business in New Mexico and what is being sold there? For that matter, how would someone not involved in the meth business in New Mexico learn about the latest product? Walt doesn’t use the product, he doesn’t buy or sell it. We know he returns to NM, but takes a leisurely breakfast. He hurries at the house because he might be recognized, and is on the way out. He is there for the ricin. Meaning he plans to use it to kill or bluff someone. Probably kill. And flash forward Walt looks healthy. Walter White is always dying of cancer. Becoming Heisenberg always sends the cancer into remission: he becomes a cancer that spreads to others, but can’t be killed himself. Heisenberg is a virulent, metastasizing cancer that cannot be killed. It outsmarts all oncologists or just has amazing luck due to its survival mechanisms. And we are not done with Jack and the aryan brotherhood members. Heisenberg has unfinished business with them. Heisenberg does not know they did not kill Pinkman, but he does know they stole his money and killed his family. Heisenberg will in his taunting revenge will make the same mistake Gus made in seeking his revenge. Weirdly, Jack the nazi doesn’t seem to be vengeful. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/449 "2013-09-18T07:15:04Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There is no way that they don’t figure out about the money laundering. Regardless of whether or not Skyler faces prison, no one will be having an A-1 day anymore. Well, duh. The whole point of Walt’s phone call is to impress on the cops listening in that Skyler only did it under duress, scared for her life and scared for her family. It gives her a way to ‘come clean’, as it were, to the cops, while still having the best chance of staying out of prison and with her children. I honestly don’t know how someone can not see this. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/450 "2013-09-18T07:50:03Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > It’s worth noting that Jesse was unconscious when Walt did all of that so he didn’t witness it. Unless Walt went into detail on how he did that, and we never saw him say anything, Jesse wouldn’t know how to go about repeating the event. He did. Right after the fire engines went by Jessie stumbles out and asks Walt what he’d done to those guys and Walt told him that he’s made Phosphene gas and the ingredients he’d used. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/451 "2013-09-18T10:34:11Z")
Of course Todd is a psychopath. Walt is too. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/452 "2013-09-18T10:38:16Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There is no way that they don’t figure out about the money laundering. Regardless of whether or not Skyler faces prison, no one will be having an A-1 day anymore. What is the evidence, though? There’s no more cash. How can they prove anything? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/453 "2013-09-18T10:59:10Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Namely, Walt’s rant being a ruse to throw off the cops and exculpate Skyler. The point is not to completely exculpate Skyler but to limit her exposure to criminal liability by offering evidence that her knowledge of the details of Walt’s crimes were limited and that she was acting under duress. If the cops think she’s a victim and that she didn’t know the specific details of the worst crimes, then it is realistic that she might not face charges as a full accessory. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/454 "2013-09-18T12:17:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Declan was in it for money. Probably, but Declan’s barely even a character, he was more of a plot device. We’ve spent a lot more time with Uncle Jack. > [@Marley23](#): > > And I don’t think I’m willing to accept that Gus was in business just for revenge. He did want revenge on the cartel but he wasn’t the Count of Monte Cristo. The only time he did anything that was against his business interests was when he taunted Hector, and his move against the cartel (which results in the death of Don Eladio as well as Joaquin Salamanca) only happened because his hand was forced. Not revenge, no: pride and spite. He knew he was right about what he pitched to Don Eladio about crystal meth being an ideal product (fully synthetic, no Columbian growers to deal with, etc), and that the only thing holding it back was the poor quality that confined use to hillbillies and bikers. So, he set about proving that he was right, and when the opportunity and need for revenge arose, he took that as well. But his motive - wounded pride - wasn’t all that dissimilar to Walt’s - bitter resentment. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/455 "2013-09-18T13:00:50Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The story was over, Walt was arrested and Hank had won. Walt Jr was going to find out in a matter of hours just what kind of man Walt was. Would it be better to hear it from detectives, who undoubtedly were going to pay Skyler a visit, or to hear it from family? Family first, Jr had a right to know what was going on from people he cared about before finding it out from people who he didn’t know at all I feel like I’m watching a different show than a lot of people here. I like the one I’m watching much better. It has a complexity to the characters that other shows do not, and has characters whose true motivations differ from what they might say. It’s cool, because the writing and acting is so good you can discern these different nuances from interpreting the emotions on their faces and the tone of the scene. You can also rely on consistency in the characters behavior to help interpret what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/456 "2013-09-18T13:15:07Z")
Hey, \*\*Hentor \*\*and **Frazzled** , guess what? I think you’re both right. Marie is gloating, but she also truly cares about Skyler. She’s there to show that she’s won, but she is also genuinely looking for reconciliation, because she still needs her sister back (much like Skyler after she found out about Marie’s shoplifting way back when, just turned up to 11). The two sets of motives aren’t mutually exclusive. These characters, like real people, are complex enough to have both in their heads at once. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/457 "2013-09-18T13:33:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not revenge, no: pride and spite. He knew he was right about what he pitched to Don Eladio about crystal meth being an ideal product (fully synthetic, no Columbian growers to deal with, etc), and that the only thing holding it back was the poor quality that confined use to hillbillies and bikers. So, he set about proving that he was right, and when the opportunity and need for revenge arose, he took that as well. But his motive - wounded pride - wasn’t all that dissimilar to Walt’s - bitter resentment. That sounds more like Walt than Gus to me. I think Gus recognized crystal meth as a good potential business and went to the U.S., out of the cartel’s reach, for that reason. I don’t see him proving a point there. And when the cartel later realized he was right and started making and selling meth, he didn’t sell to them and leave having proved his point- he kept building up his business. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/458 "2013-09-18T13:53:08Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Hey, \*\*Hentor \*\*and **Frazzled** , guess what? I think you’re both right. Marie is gloating, but she also truly cares about Skyler. She’s there to show that she’s won, but she is also genuinely looking for reconciliation, because she still needs her sister back (much like Skyler after she found out about Marie’s shoplifting way back when, just turned up to 11). The two sets of motives aren’t mutually exclusive. These characters, like real people, are complex enough to have both in their heads at once. Well, that’s precisely my point, thanks. These characters are complex, and have multiple motivations. I never said Marie didn’t also actually care. I said that scene was full of gloat and table turning. Her dictatorial tone shows little of her compassion. Marie’s inclination with the kids is always to take them. Sure, it’s motivated in part by concern, but it’s also consistent with her baser tendency to just take things she wants. In the scene with Skyker, she doesn’t physically take Junior, but she does take the opportunity to take parental control from Skyler in terms of when and how to tell Junior about Walt. The fact that this would devastate Walt and would alienate Walt from his family is, I’m sure, not lost on Marie. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/459 "2013-09-18T14:01:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Her dictatorial tone shows little of her compassion. She knows Skyler can’t be trusted, so she gives her no options. She’s more concerned with Skyler doing right by her son than she is with Skyler’s feelings. I’m not sure I see gloating from Marie in that scene. It’s more like she is telling Skyler she _will_ do the right thing because she has no other choice. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/460 "2013-09-18T14:09:11Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > And because it looked like Todd was all by himself at the end. He may be rich but he’s motivated by something (Lydia) other than money. Maybe - he clearly is into her. I can’t understand _why_, though. I mean, the woman is basically a giant bundle of nerves, held together by greed, wrapped in a veneer of condescension. Pretty, yes, but I wouldn’t want to spend an elevator ride with her, let alone any greater period of time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=24)