# Breaking Bad 5.14 "Ozymandias" 9/15/13 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893 "2013-09-15T06:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/461 "2013-09-18T14:12:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That sounds more like Walt than Gus to me. I think Gus recognized crystal meth as a good potential business and went to the U.S., out of the cartel’s reach, for that reason. I don’t see him proving a point there. And when the cartel later realized he was right and started making and selling meth, he didn’t sell to them and leave having proved his point- he kept building up his business. No, he didn’t leave having proved his point, because his point was that he was smarter and more capable than the cartel, which was after all just a bunch of thugs, closer to Uncle Jack and co. than Gus or Walt. As Gus told them, the cartel goons were just middlemen for Columbians, they lacked Gus’ intellect and foresight. Gus has some Stringer Bell in him: the drug game can be played a different way, without the mindless macho violence bullshit, and with a rational, scientific approach. I mean, clearly this wasn’t just about making money for Gus: he regularly scheduled time out of his day to taunt and tormet Hector Salamanca, he devoted himself to his cover to the point that he didn’t actually get any visible benefit from his meth empire (no luxuries, no loved ones, periodically working in a fast-food restaurant), instead of just going along with the cartel’s strong-arming him and enjoying his still-massive income, Gus engineers an insanely risky scheme to destroy the entire cartel. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/462 "2013-09-18T14:22:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > She knows Skyler can’t be trusted, so she gives her no options. She’s more concerned with Skyler doing right by her son than she is with Skyler’s feelings. I’m not sure I see gloating from Marie in that scene. It’s more like she is telling Skyler she _will_ do the right thing because she has no other choice. I agree- I didn’t see gloating but taking charge because Skyler was so far off the deep end she couldn’t see how far she had fallen from being a good parent. She _needed_ Skyler to do the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/463 "2013-09-18T14:24:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think the fact that his solutions is letting her die speaks for itself. It speaks for Walt being callous with other people’s lives, certainly. > [@](#): > > That’s backward, though: his choices didn’t make him, he made his choices. And Walt has always had a poor grasp of why he does what he does. Maybe he has to face it now that it’s come to nothing. This assumes there is no character change in Walt. Part of the fun in the series concerns exactly this point: was Walt always ‘like this’, or was he torn between ever-weakening impulses towards normal human motivations and being the soulless “Heisenberg”? In short, was Walt always bad, and he’s just revealing himeself, or did he, by making bad choices over time, become worse? Was the real impulse to Walt’s reign of destruction simply resentment and thwarted pride? A good case could be made for that. To my mind, it is one of the themes of the show that the creators leave that point ambiguous - deliberately so. Even the name “Heisenberg” is, in a sense, a pun referencing this - the ‘uncertainty principle’. Edit: similarly with Skyler … in her case, it is more obvious that her character is falling into badness. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/464 "2013-09-18T14:44:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > She knows Skyler can’t be trusted, so she gives her no options. She’s more concerned with Skyler doing right by her son than she is with Skyler’s feelings. I’m not sure I see gloating from Marie in that scene. It’s more like she is telling Skyler she _will_ do the right thing because she has no other choice. Yeah, pretty much. Skyler would have turned over that “confession” before she would have let Junior find out the truth from her or the cops. Hell, she still might have turned over the confession if Marie hadn’t offered for Hank to try to help her out, or if she thought she could get it to the cops before Marie could get to Junior and tell him herself. I don’t think Marie allows herself to consciously be aware of that, though. Because Sky’s her sister, and she wants to believe Sky did the horrible things she’s done out of fear. Fear of Walt, fear of jail once she was enmeshed in the whole mess. I mean, really, who wants to think their sister is capable of such a fundamental betrayal as making that awful tape without some serious duress? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/465 "2013-09-18T14:51:02Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > When Skyler asked, “You killed Hank?” was anyone else expecting Walt to say “What’s one more?” I think those are the words Skyler hears echoing in her own head at that moment. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/466 "2013-09-18T14:52:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This assumes there is no character change in Walt. Part of the fun in the series concerns exactly this point: was Walt always ‘like this’, or was he torn between ever-weakening impulses towards normal human motivations and being the soulless “Heisenberg”? In short, was Walt always bad, and he’s just revealing himeself, or did he, by making bad choices over time, become worse? My view on Walt is in between: it’s something that was always inside him broke out. He resented the way his life turned out. He had no money, no prestige, he washed cars for his own students. He resented the Schwartzes. Then he was diagnosed with terminal cancer- yet another victimization. I think that’s why he’s been able to allow himself to do the things he’s done and why he’s never been able to accept _moderate_ success when he could have more, and why he’s demanded credit even though credit would’ve ruined everything. In some ways the die was cast at the beginning of the series and everything since then has been Walt doubling down and committing to the choice he’d already made. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/467 "2013-09-18T14:54:04Z")
Marie sees herself as royalty, but what is she the queen of? She is constantly talking, but people don’t listen and in fact tell her she has a big mouth. At one point, she resorts to going to open houses and creating elaborate lies about herself. Furthermore, the moment she slapped Skyler was supposed to represent a fundamental schism between the sisters. The idea that this particular interaction with her sister is devoid of influence from all those other motivations is inconsistent with the caliber of writing on this show. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/468 "2013-09-18T15:01:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > She knows Skyler can’t be trusted, so she gives her no options. She’s more concerned with Skyler doing right by her son than she is with Skyler’s feelings. I’m not sure I see gloating from Marie in that scene. It’s more like she is telling Skyler she _will_ do the right thing because she has no other choice. This is a really intersting discussion. I don’t think I’d call it “gloating” exactly, but I do think there’s a definite “I win” note in what she’s saying and doing (and how she’s saying and doing it). With that said, I also think she’s genuinely (and even admirably) trying to do the right thing as a sister and as the “winner.” She’s also trying to reestablish some sense of control (or dominance even) and that may not reflect well on her, but then, it’s understandable in the light of how drastically her world has fallen apart around her in the space of (I think?) just a few short weeks. (If even that?) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/469 "2013-09-18T15:02:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Furthermore, the moment she slapped Skyler was supposed to represent a fundamental schism between the sisters. Says who? The two sisters are connected on a fundamental level and always will be, I think, no matter how rocky shit gets. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/470 "2013-09-18T15:02:56Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I think those are the words Skyler hears echoing in her own head at that moment. What’s the reference there? I don’t recall it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/471 "2013-09-18T15:05:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > IEdit: similarly with Skyler … in her case, it is more obvious that her character is falling into badness. Huh. I wouldn’t have said that at all. While she’s done wrong, isn’t it arguably more in the “mistake” sense of wrong than the moral sense? Isn’t it all genuinely motivated by fiercely and legitimately protective feelings? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/472 "2013-09-18T15:10:19Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > What is the evidence, though? There’s no more cash. How can they prove anything? They couldn’t have had the money to buy the car wash in the first place. Whether they can specifically link it to the meth business is irrelevant. On a different subject, Walt will know something about what’s going on because this will be huge national news. The brother in law of a DEA agent is a major meth manufacturer. He, among other things, kills his DEA agent brother in law, and is responsible for the bombing and takes out the Mexican cartel. Then he totally disappears and the blue meth is back on the streets. The legendary Heisenberg is a ghost out there and no one can find him. When Walt years that the blue meth is back, he knows that they didn’t kill Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/473 "2013-09-18T15:12:37Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What’s the reference there? I don’t recall it. From the episode “Rabid Dog”. Skyler to Walt, on killing Jesse, after he tried to burn down their house: “We’ve come this far. For us. What’s one more?” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/474 "2013-09-18T15:13:00Z")
" I kept saying when we were shooting that day, “This is just so sad.” It broke my heart because their relationship, the bond they had — that’s done. Because that’s definitely a line you just can’t cross, to jeopardize her husband’s life. That’s unforgivable." How about “Marie” herself says so? > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Says who? The two sisters are connected on a fundamental level and always will be, I think, no matter how rocky shit gets. [http://www.tvguide.com/news/breaking-bad-betsy-brandt-1069295.aspx](http://www.tvguide.com/news/breaking-bad-betsy-brandt-1069295.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/475 "2013-09-18T15:15:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [http://www.tvguide.com/news/breaking-bad-betsy-brandt-1069295.aspx](http://www.tvguide.com/news/breaking-bad-betsy-brandt-1069295.aspx) Yeah, well. She’s entitled to her opinion, I suppose. I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/476 "2013-09-18T15:24:42Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Yeah, well. She’s entitled to her opinion, I suppose. I don’t agree. :smack: I suspect that she might have a smidge more insight into Marie’s feelings and motivations and han you do, unless you happen to be Vince Gilligan. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/477 "2013-09-18T15:34:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > This is a really intersting discussion. > > I don’t think I’d call it “gloating” exactly, but I do think there’s a definite “I win” note in what she’s saying and doing (and how she’s saying and doing it). With that said, I also think she’s genuinely (and even admirably) trying to do the right thing as a sister and as the “winner.” > > She’s also trying to reestablish some sense of control (or dominance even) and that may not reflect well on her, but then, it’s understandable in the light of how drastically her world has fallen apart around her in the space of (I think?) just a few short weeks. (If even that?) I think that’s all true. There’s an ‘I win’ note because Hank and Marie urged Skyler and Walt to come clean before they were caught. They refused. It would be pretty much impossible for Marie not to resent Skyler here, but she’s not just twisting the knife. > [@hajario](#): > > When Walt years that the blue meth is back, he knows that they didn’t kill Jesse. I’m not sure that’s the case since Walt was no longer paying attention to what they were doing. But if it is true- so what? That’s not enough to motivate him to come out of hiding and drive cross country without stopping. He wanted Jesse dead, but in the context of what comes after it doesn’t seem like it would be that important to Walt. Also, if a couple of months elapse between Walt’s escape and the flash forward, would they hang onto Jesse for that long? It wouldn’t make much sense. I think they’d have him cook with Todd once, or a couple of times, and then try to get rid of him. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/478 "2013-09-18T15:42:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > :smack: > > I suspect that she might have a smidge more insight into Marie’s feelings and motivations and han you do, unless you happen to be Vince Gilligan. Are you? Vince Gilligan is entitled to his opinion, as well. I don’t have to agree with him either. (By the way, there are seven writers on the show. It’s not all Vince.) And you don’t have to agree with me, or with either of them. Or you can, if you want to, but don’t you think you’re allowed to use your own brain and gut as well? Why would we bother with these threads if we could just download a ready-made interpretation of everything? There’s room for interpretation regarding the actions and motivations of just about every character on the show, that’s what’s so great about it. Look, if the actor who originally played Hamlet, or Shakespeare himself, came out and gave you their version of whether Hamlet is crazy or just pretending, would you just automatically accept it? How is that any fun? And no, I’m absolutely no fan of the “Word of God” approach, to put it mildly. (Not that I don’t enjoy hearing what the actors and creators have to say, and take it into account. I do! I suck up every second of the Insider podcast, for instance, obsessively.) Really, though, you honestly don’t think Marie at least on some level wants to reconcile with her sister in the scene in the office? Maybe she didn’t when she slapped her, but I think she does now. Although, again, I’m not saying you have to agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/479 "2013-09-18T15:42:20Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Maybe - he clearly is into her. I can’t understand _why_, though. I mean, the woman is basically a giant bundle of nerves, held together by greed, wrapped in a veneer of condescension. Pretty, yes, but I wouldn’t want to spend an elevator ride with her, let alone any greater period of time. I think she may be the only “classy” woman he’s ever been around. We never see the women or girls who are part of the Nazi group, do we? But I bet none of them are like Lydia. He’s in awe of her. She’s pretty and she talks to him. For some guys that’s all it takes to fall in love. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/480 "2013-09-18T15:46:25Z")
Of course Marie wants to reconcile with Skyler, and now she will even more so that Hank is dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=25)