# Breaking Bad 5.14 "Ozymandias" 9/15/13 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893 "2013-09-15T06:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/481 "2013-09-18T15:52:47Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Of course Marie wants to reconcile with Skyler, and now she will even more so that Hank is dead. Then again, maybe in the next episode Marie is pissed off enough about Hank that she goes and shoots Skyler in the head, buries her and does the polka on her grave. In which case I might concede that I’m off-base about her feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/482 "2013-09-18T16:02:43Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Then again, maybe in the next episode Marie is pissed off enough about Hank that she goes and shoots Skyler in the head, buries her and does the polka on her grave. In which case I might concede that I’m off-base about her feelings. I think Marie will force herself to believe that Skyler was forced under duress to go along with Walt. She couldn’t handle losing her husband, and then her only other family on top of that. I doubt Skyler will abuse her of that notion. And there is at least a kernel of truth to it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/483 "2013-09-18T16:29:09Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Of course Marie wants to reconcile with Skyler, and now she will even more so that Hank is dead. This is exactly what I saw. Skyler and Marie need each other. I’ve always had the impression that Skyler has been somewhat of a mother figure to Marie and Marie has always been a little bit of an immature screw up. We’ve seen many times where Skyler has stepped in as a parental role to her sister. Marie just can’t comprehend how bad Skyler has been and cast all of that blame to Walt for corrupting her sister. She wanted Walt out of the picture both to hurt him for hurting her relationship with Skyler, and so she could get her sister back. When Walt was arrested she went to Skyler. Sure, she was happy that her side won (or so she thought at the time). But I think her _primary_ purpose for being there was to take the parental role that Skyler had always taken with her. Everything Marie said made sense. Now that Walt is in jail it was time to come clean on all the lies. Destroy the copies of the tape. Come clean with Flynn. Admit all the bad things that had happened and _then_ work on fixing the future. With no more lies Marie and Skyler could try to build the trust again between them. The show has always said that they’re the most important things in each others lives and I think that that’s what Marie wants again. With all the therapy she’s had she simply went in with a no bullshit approach. Of course, by the end of the episode all bets are off. But I still think Marie had pure intentions. Where people saw a power play I saw that she was just a very angry and hurt woman who was taking charge to try to set things right. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/484 "2013-09-18T16:30:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Huh. I wouldn’t have said that at all. While she’s done wrong, isn’t it arguably more in the “mistake” sense of wrong than the moral sense? Isn’t it all genuinely motivated by fiercely and legitimately protective feelings? She was cooking the books at her old job before Walt ever started cooking meth. Who was she trying to protect there? And can you honestly class something like videotaping what you know to be a complete pack of lies that will blow your sister’s life to smithereens as a mistake rather than a moral failing? What about telling Walt to kill Jesse because “what’s one more?” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/485 "2013-09-18T16:35:34Z")
I forget what was happening with cooking the books, but the other things you mentioned were in reaction to imminent threats to her and her family. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/486 "2013-09-18T16:35:55Z")
As far as the TV Guide interview posted above, I think that’s true too. When Marie discovered the truth of Skyler initially she probably would have considered the relationship over. But people change their minds, and from what I saw of the next few episodes she transferred all the hatred she had for her sister on that day to Walt. Once Walt was out of the picture I think she really hoped she could get her sister back. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/487 "2013-09-18T16:37:45Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > She was cooking the books at her old job before Walt ever started cooking meth. Who was she trying to protect there? And can you honestly class something like videotaping what you know to be a complete pack of lies that will blow your sister’s life to smithereens as a mistake rather than a moral failing? What about telling Walt to kill Jesse because “what’s one more?” Not to mention fucking her boss for around a year before Walt was diagnosed. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/488 "2013-09-18T16:43:31Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Not to mention fucking her boss for around a year before Walt was diagnosed. Wait, what? The IFT thing was in season 3, and she did it partly to get back at Walt for the way he was treating her. Unless I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/489 "2013-09-18T16:49:21Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > She was cooking the books at her old job before Walt ever started cooking meth. Who was she trying to protect there? Ted and her coworkers? I think she was initially convinced that Ted was just trying to keep the business going instead of just committing fraud for profit. Skyler made a mistake in not rejecting Walt’s excuses and turning him in the first time she found out he was making meth. It’s an understandable mistake in some ways - not a small one, but her reasons weren’t totally insane. But that was pretty much her one opportunity to get out. She was presented with two bad choices: leave Walt and break up her family, or enable his crimes. She picked the second and everything else has been a compromise since then. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/490 "2013-09-18T16:50:44Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Wait, what? The IFT thing was in season 3, and she did it partly to get back at Walt for the way he was treating her. Unless I missed something. Skyler did have a one-time drunken hook-up with Beneke, before the series begins. He wanted to keep it going, she didn’t, so she quit. This is revealed in episode 2.07, “Negro y Azul”, in a conversation between Skyler and Marie after Skyler resumes her job at Beneke’s company. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/491 "2013-09-18T17:01:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Skyler did have a one-time drunken hook-up with Beneke, before the series begins. He wanted to keep it going, she didn’t, so she quit. > > This is revealed in episode 2.07, “Negro y Azul”, in a conversation between Skyler and Marie after Skyler resumes her job at Beneke’s company. Oh, yeah. I remember that now. I didn’t interpret that as them actually having had sex that time, though, just some groping and grabbing or whatever at a Christmas party. I guess they might have, though. I suppose she downplays it for Marie in that conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/492 "2013-09-18T17:26:43Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Vince Gilligan is entitled to his opinion, as well. I don’t have to agree with him either. (By the way, there are seven writers on the show. It’s not all Vince.) > > And you don’t have to agree with me, or with either of them. Or you can, if you want to, but don’t you think you’re allowed to use your own brain and gut as well? Why would we bother with these threads if we could just download a ready-made interpretation of everything? There’s room for interpretation regarding the actions and motivations of just about every character on the show, that’s what’s so great about it. > > Look, if the actor who originally played Hamlet, or Shakespeare himself, came out and gave you their version of whether Hamlet is crazy or just pretending, would you just automatically accept it? How is that any fun? > > And no, I’m absolutely no fan of the “Word of God” approach, to put it mildly. (Not that I don’t enjoy hearing what the actors and creators have to say, and take it into account. I do! I suck up every second of the Insider podcast, for instance, obsessively.) > > Really, though, you honestly don’t think Marie at least on some level wants to reconcile with her sister in the scene in the office? Maybe she didn’t when she slapped her, but I think she does now. Although, again, I’m not saying you have to agree with me. Wait a sec. You ask me “says who,” then generously “suppose” that Betsy Brandt might be entitled to an opinion on the subject, and then come back with “everyone’s opinion is equally valid”? Do you see the inconsistencies in these three positions? Now, as it happens, I certainly think that part of the enjoyment of works of fiction is thinking through your own interpretations of what is presented. So, I would not typically agree that the creators position is the only valid one. But when you ask “says who?”, you’re implying that there is an authority to refer to. Further, you seem to keep perceiving this in a limited, either/or fashion. That’s completely at odds with the complexity of a show like Breaking Bad. Marie is not motivated _either_ out of compassion and concern for Skyler _or_ out of more base, personal motives. She is motivated by both. My position is that the latter are more in evidence in the scene itself. > [@Living Well Is Best Revenge](#): > > Of course Marie wants to reconcile with Skyler, and now she will even more so that Hank is dead. Yes. AND she will also harbor a great deal of anger, given her sense that Walt is responsible for her death and that Skyler is somewhat complicit in Walt’s activities. It’s more interesting if characters have multiple and even conflicting motivations for their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/493 "2013-09-18T17:38:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. AND she will also harbor a great deal of anger, given her sense that Walt is responsible for her death and that Skyler is somewhat complicit in Walt’s activities. > > It’s more interesting if characters have multiple and even conflicting motivations for their behavior. Yeah, maybe. Guess we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/494 "2013-09-18T17:44:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wait a sec. You ask me “says who,” then generously “suppose” that Betsy Brandt might be entitled to an opinion on the subject, and then come back with “everyone’s opinion is equally valid”? Do you see the inconsistencies in these three positions? > > Now, as it happens, I certainly think that part of the enjoyment of works of fiction is thinking through your own interpretations of what is presented. So, I would not typically agree that the creators position is the only valid one. But when you ask “says who?”, you’re implying that there is an authority to refer to. > > Further, you seem to keep perceiving this in a limited, either/or fashion. That’s completely at odds with the complexity of a show like Breaking Bad. Marie is not motivated _either_ out of compassion and concern for Skyler _or_ out of more base, personal motives. She is motivated by both. My position is that the latter are more in evidence in the scene itself. **Hentor** , I’m sorry if I came off as snarky or if I offended you. I didn’t mean to. Can we just be friends? I just like thinking about this show, hearing everybody’s thoughs about it, and coming up with more or less sensible theories about the characters, that’s all. I don’t think I’m more or less “right” than anyone else. Being right isn’t even the point at all. There’s so many different viewpoints to be had on the characters and plots in this show! I don’t know if you’ve listened to the podcast, but if you do, you’ll find that even the creators debate the motivations and thoughts of the characters, and seem to enjoy discussing it as much as we do here. What I like about these Breaking Bad threads is that there isn’t really any arguing, there’s just a lot of cool discussion, and lots of insightful comments. This is kind of a safe room. That’s why I hang out here instead of Great Debates. I really don’t like arguing. Plus, as you might have noticed, I’m a bit of a fan of the show. So, again, I apologize. It seems to me like we’re more or less on the same page concerning interpretation of fiction, anyway, \*and \*about the scene in question, as per my earlier post: > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Hey, \*\*Hentor \*\*and **Frazzled** , guess what? I think you’re both right. Marie is gloating, but she also truly cares about Skyler. She’s there to show that she’s won, but she is also genuinely looking for reconciliation, because she still needs her sister back (much like Skyler after she found out about Marie’s shoplifting way back when, just turned up to 11). The two sets of motives aren’t mutually exclusive. These characters, like real people, are complex enough to have both in their heads at once. So, would it be cool with you if we don’t take this any further? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/495 "2013-09-18T17:56:05Z")
BTW, bloody heck: Only two episodes left. What will I talk endlessly about after that? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/496 "2013-09-18T17:58:50Z")
I think when **Martian Bigfoot** said “says who,” he wasn’t actually saying, straightforwardly, “What authority declares it so,” but rather, was sarcastically indicating that he did not think there is room for authoritative declarations in a discussion like this. If I’m right about that, it may clear up the confusion you felt, **Hentor** , on seeing his response to your provision of a quote from the actress. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/497 "2013-09-18T18:08:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think when **Martian Bigfoot** said “says who,” he wasn’t actually saying, straightforwardly, “What authority declares it so,” but rather, was sarcastically indicating that he did not think there is room for authoritative declarations in a discussion like this. Yes, that was what I meant. I thought it was clear, sorry if it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/498 "2013-09-18T18:39:06Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > They couldn’t have had the money to buy the car wash in the first place. Whether they can specifically link it to the meth business is irrelevant. It’s irrelevant? Hmm. Anyway, Walt had plenty of, fake, evidence that he won the money playing blackjack. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/499 "2013-09-18T18:58:52Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Anyway, Walt had plenty of, fake, evidence that he won the money playing blackjack. There was no evidence for the blackjack thing. It was a story just barely plausible enough to convince Hank and Marie early on. I’m not sure if Walt’s story is going to work here, but I think their remaining problems are going to have more to do with the Aryan Brotherhood than the police. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893/500 "2013-09-18T19:03:37Z")
About Todd: What really makes me suspect that he’s a psychopath is that “sorry for your loss” to Walt. After witnessing what just happened, and Walt’s reaction, he somehow thinks \*that \*is the right thing to say? It’s like he’s either trying to fake emotion, but is really bad at it, or doesn’t really get that other people have emotions, and thinks that surface politeness really is all there is. There’s certainly seems to be \*something \*messed up in the boy’s head. But then again, Lydia. Do psychopaths have crushes? I mean, actual question. Do they? I really don’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-bad-5-14-ozymandias-9-15-13/668893.md?page=26)