# Breaking News: Bob Barr announces presidential run as Libertarian candidate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032 "2008-05-12T15:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/61 "2008-05-13T17:10:28Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Nobody sane thinks that Barr has any chance of being elected… [/QUOTE] Nobody sane thinks McCain will win Maryland’s electoral votes, so why are you voting for him? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/62 "2008-05-13T17:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] The underserved market that Barr _can_ pick votes up from are disaffected, formerly mainstream (by 1980s and 1990s standards) Republicans who feel that the party has left them during the past few years. [/QUOTE] But, those formerly-mainstream, now-disaffected Pubs you describe are not libertarians. They’re the [Rockefeller Republicans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican) – pro-business but not ideological about it; fiscally conservative (but willing to balance the budget through high taxes); socially liberal; not hostile to a moderate welfare state. What appeal has Barr for them? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/63 "2008-05-13T17:34:59Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 [Minarchists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchy) are small-statists. How are they un-Libertarian? [/quote] Libertarianism is a political ethic — specifically noncoercion — and has nothing to do with the size of government, but only with the scope of its power; i.e., it should have only the power to suppress coercion, but it should be however big it needs to be to do that. > [@](#): > > And what exactly do you mean by “recidivists”? (A term with which I am familiar only in connection with criminology.) People who want to return to the old ways. They want a 1787 America. > [@](#): > > What exactly is **your** verson of libertarianism? “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” — [Ludwig von Mises](http://mises.org/liberal.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/64 "2008-05-13T17:36:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, those formerly-mainstream, now-disaffected Pubs you describe are not libertarians. They’re the [Rockefeller Republicans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican) – pro-business but not ideological about it; fiscally conservative (but willing to balance the budget through high taxes); socially liberal; not hostile to a moderate welfare state. What appeal has Barr for them? [/QUOTE] Let’s see a cite for that? Or at least a cite that says those are the _only_ Republicans disaffected by Bush. The five or ten Rockefeller Republicans that remain in the party may not like Bush, but their influence ended around 1964, so I’m not too concerned about what they think. The idea that these few Northeast liberals are the only ones who don’t like Bush is ridiculous. The Republicans I know who are disaffected are overwhelmingly libertarian. From media reports, some social conservatives are also disaffected. Barr won’t appeal to the latter, but he will the former. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/65 "2008-05-13T18:10:10Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” — [Ludwig von Mises](http://mises.org/liberal.asp) [/QUOTE] Well, **that** ain’t too radical. I mean, in the U.S., the means of production are **already** in private (or, at any rate, non-state) hands and almost always have been. Who needs a movement? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/66 "2008-05-13T18:12:04Z")
This is very bizarre. The Libertarian Party specifically targeted Bob Barr for defeat in his run for re-election in 2002: > [@](#): > > The Greens and the Libertarians still itch for the role of spoiler. One of the most interesting races this year will be in Georgia, where redistricting has paired two incumbent Republicans–conservative Reps. John Linder and Bob Barr–in the GOP primary. Ron Crickenberger, political director of the LP, tells INSIGHT that the party plans to spend as much as $100,000 in the race to attack Barr’s hard-line position against medical marijuana and give the primary to Linder. An LP position paper entitled “Spoiler Targets for 2002” presents the case in stark terms: “Bob Barr is target No. 1, both in terms of time criticality and in overall importance. To the medical-marijuana movement, Barr is the equivalent of the Antichrist.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/67 "2008-05-13T18:13:17Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, those formerly-mainstream, now-disaffected Pubs you describe are not libertarians. They’re the [Rockefeller Republicans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican) – pro-business but not ideological about it; fiscally conservative (but willing to balance the budget through high taxes); socially liberal; not hostile to a moderate welfare state. What appeal has Barr for them? [/QUOTE] No, I’m talking about the 1980s-90s GOP mainstream, not the 1950s-70s GOP mainstream, which are now misnamed the Rockefeller Republicans. (Nelson Rockefeller and his ilk - Javits, Keating, Percy, Brooke, Lindsay, Hatfield, etc. - were too liberal to win the GOP Presidential nomination even back then.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/68 "2008-05-13T18:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Let’s see a cite for that? Or at least a cite that says those are the _only_ Republicans disaffected by Bush. The five or ten Rockefeller Republicans that remain in the party may not like Bush, but their influence ended around 1964, so I’m not too concerned about what they think. [/quote] Don’t forget that Nixon was a Rockefeller Republican, or something not too different. Ford, too. (It was [Nixon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_nixon#Domestic_policy) who created the EPA and OSHA and instituted the first significant affirmative action program.) And I don’t think that tradition is entirely dead even today. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/69 "2008-05-13T18:15:32Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] This is very bizarre. The Libertarian Party specifically targeted Bob Barr for defeat in his run for re-election in 2002: [/QUOTE] Yep, and there were [voices within the libertarian movement](http://libertyunbound.com/archive/2002_08/jansen-barr.html) saying this was foolish at the time: > [@](#): > > The LP effort to defeat Bob Barr in the primary is, at best, a waste of precious resources sorely needed for LP candidates in the general election. At worst, it will contribute to the defeat of one of the most libertarian-minded congressmen we have, while failing to gain any allies. The LP has a historic opportunity to present itsellf as a viable alternative to the big parties, instead of spending its money and energy trying to defeat one of libertarianism’s few friends in Congress just because they disagree with him on one issue. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/70 "2008-05-13T18:17:37Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] No, I’m talking about the 1980s-90s GOP mainstream . . . [/QUOTE] Ah, well, if you mean the [movement conservatives,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9423088&postcount=54) I can well understand how all of them but the neocons and the bizcons might feel betrayed by the Bush Admin. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/71 "2008-05-13T18:35:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ah, well, if you mean the [movement conservatives,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9423088&postcount=54) I can well understand how all of them but the neocons and the bizcons might feel betrayed by the Bush Admin. [/QUOTE] No, I’m thinking more of just your median GOP voter (if such a creature can be defined) of that era, who bought into what Reagan was selling in the 1980s, and bought into what Gingrich was selling in the 1990s, without being ‘movement’ anything, because most people aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/72 "2008-05-13T23:25:19Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] 3- have a disputed election due to one southern state (if Clinton’s the nominee, then Arkansas, and if Obama’s the nominee, Hawaii) [/QUOTE] How “southern” is Hawaii aside from geographically? If this is too hijack-ish you can PM if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/73 "2008-05-14T01:35:27Z")
Actually, I was wondering the same thing. While I haven’t lived in the south, I did live in Hawaii for several years. I can’t think of much it has in common demographically or sociologically with the south east, at least, not much that it doesn’t have in common with the rest of the country. As for Mr. Barr, I started cursing as I read this thread. I usually vote Libertarian since I get fed up with both parties. There’s no way I can bring myself to vote for Barr, though. Not after his sponoring of the Defense of Marriage Act, despite having three wives. He’s who I usually bring up as an example of who marriage should be defended from! Perhaps he has had a radical change in his views. If I see enough evidence of that, I’ll reconsider. If I don’t, chalk up one more vote for the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/74 "2008-05-14T03:00:32Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] And you can kid yourself and say 'Obama’s not a Leftist!" all you want, but if you look at his proposed policies, well, yes, in fact he is. [/QUOTE] Ah, well, at least you didn’t plumb the utter depths of asstardery and call him a [Marxist.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=450940) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/75 "2008-05-14T06:42:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] If he finally gives up. The problem is that of all Ron Paul supporters I’ve met, roughly half of them prefer Obama over McCain. It’s not a huge sample, I know, but Paul has some positions that are quite attractive to liberals, like his Iraq stance. [/QUOTE] I’m a Ron Paul supporter. I prefer Obama over McCain. But I’m certainly nowhere near a liberal. McCain offers nothing in the way of what Ron Paul would offer. He’s not going to attempt to shrink the government, curtail its power, promote fiscal responsibility or anything like that. Neither, probably, will Obama. But at least Obama gives the impression of being a decent, honest guy who will legitimately attempt to serve the American public, whereas McCain appears to be a neocon lapdog. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, those formerly-mainstream, now-disaffected Pubs you describe are not libertarians. They’re the [Rockefeller Republicans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican) – pro-business but not ideological about it; fiscally conservative (but willing to balance the budget through high taxes); socially liberal; not hostile to a moderate welfare state. What appeal has Barr for them? [/QUOTE] I think you underestimate the amount of people who view the size, scope, and power as government as a primary issue. What do people who advocate small government do on election day? 10 years ago, they voted Republican, because they were generally more fiscally conservative than democrats and more hesistant to try to attack every problem with government power. But obviously the neocon movement destroyed that. They’ve expanded the government beyond anything the democrats could’ve managed. The ones who aren’t brainwashed morons who stick with a party no matter what are entirely unsatisfied with Republicans and would be more sympathetic to the LP than ever. Republicans don’t even try to represent those people anymore. I’d have a hard time voting for a guy who has a hard line stance against drug use and gay marriage, although neither issues are particularly important to me, it shows him to be out of touch with libertarian ideals. I voted for Ron Paul (write in) in 2004 - I was ahead of the curve. 😛 I may do that again. Outside chance I may vote for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/76 "2008-05-14T11:50:19Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] I think you underestimate the amount of people who view the size, scope, and power as government as a primary issue. [/QUOTE] Got any figures? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/77 "2008-05-14T13:36:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And tomorrow, 5/13/08, [there will be a special election in Mississippi to fill the U.S. House seat vacated by Roger Wicker, who resigned to take Lott’s Senate seat.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi's_1st_congressional_district_special_election,_2008) [/QUOTE] Update: [The Dem won.](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/320679) (He is a remarkably **conservative** Dem, but, still, the Pubs are voiding their bowels. 😃 ) > [@](#): > > Democrat Childers scored the Mississippi win despite an ugly, racialized campaign by national Republicans and their special-interest allies, who knew that losing this race would undermine the party’s fund-raising and candidate-recruitment efforts going into a fall election cycle where the GOP was already vulnerable because of incumbent retirements, nearly empty bank accounts and a general sense of malaise. > > The National Republican Congressional Committee spent $1.3 million – almost one fifth of the all the cash it had on hand – on this one contest. And after losing an Illinois special election for the seat vacated by former House Speaker Dennis Hastert and a Louisiana race for a seat that had been in GOP hands for three decades, they pulled no punches. > > The GOP strategy was to link Childers, who is white, to Barack Obama and the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, black men who it was presumed would frighten southern voters. > > It didn’t work. > > Childers put some distance between himself and Obama. But he put even more distance between himself and the Bush administration. > > When the Republicans made the bizarre decision this week to send Vice President Dick Cheney into Mississippi to campaign for Davis, Childers objected to Davis inviting “Big Oil’s best friend, Dick Cheney, to North Mississippi” and linked Cheney’s candidate to “the skyrocketing cost of gas.” > > Childers ran as an old-school economic populist campaign, and he made opposition to free trade central to his appeal. > > Touting a “No New Trade Deals” pledge, Childers campaigned as an aggressive critic of the Colombia Free Trade Agreement. And he promised not to support any new pacts “like NAFTA and CAFTA.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/78 "2008-05-14T13:48:10Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] I think you underestimate the amount of people who view the size, scope, and power as government as a primary issue. [/QUOTE] > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Got any figures? Put another way: Suppose we had liberal ballot-access laws, [instant-runoff voting,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting) [ballot fusion,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fusion) [proportional representation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation) – all the conditions that favor a [multiparty system,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269169) so that voters of libertarian views (as you define them) would, at least in legislative elections, have no strategic reason to vote for any party but the LP. Under those circumstances, what do you estimate would be the LP’s aggregate national vote share? Personally, I doubt it would get as much as 10%. But maybe you have some polling data that suggests otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/79 "2008-05-14T13:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Personally, I doubt it would get as much as 10%. But maybe you have some polling data that suggests otherwise. [/QUOTE] The Cato Institute did an [analysis](http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6715) of the “libertarian vote” and came up with this: > [@](#): > > Not all Americans can be classified as liberal or conservative. In particular, polls find that some 10 to 20 percent of voting-age Americans are libertarian, tending to agree with conservatives on economic issues and with liberals on personal freedom. The Gallup Governance Survey consistently finds about 20 percent of respondents giving libertarian answers to a two-question screen. > > Our own data analysis is stricter. We find 9 to 13 percent libertarians in the Gallup surveys, 14 percent in the Pew Research Center Typology Survey, and 13 percent in the American National Election Studies, generally regarded as the best source of public opinion data. However, libertarian does not necessarily mean Libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032/80 "2008-05-15T05:56:03Z")
Is it just me, or does Barr look like someone who is “passing”. Maybe he’s one of Strom Thurmond’s bastards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-bob-barr-announces-presidential-run-as-libertarian-candidate/449032.md?page=5)