# Breaking news: Hugo Chavez dead at 58 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 5, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130 "2013-03-05T22:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/21 "2013-03-06T11:58:23Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What’s so great about Cuban medical treatment? Medical services is a Cuban export and they’ve gotten very good at achieving good results with almost no resources. Cuban medical services rival US services without the resources available to US doctors. Imagine how well they could do if they actually had modern facilities and easily available medication. I don’t get why everyone is against Chavez. If he hadn’t told US oil companies to go screw themselves, no one would give a rats hind quarter about what this guy did in his country. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/22 "2013-03-06T12:44:49Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Medical services is a Cuban export and they’ve gotten very good at achieving good results with almost no resources. Cuban medical services rival US services without the resources available to US doctors. Imagine how well they could do if they actually had modern facilities and easily available medication. > > I don’t get why everyone is against Chavez. If he hadn’t told US oil companies to go screw themselves, no one would give a rats hind quarter about what this guy did in his country. Perhaps you ought to ask the Venezuelan community in S. Florida..there are 500,000 of them..doctors, teachers, lawyers, professionals. Somehow they didn’t find the socialist paradise all that good. As for the votes cast for Chavez..lets just say that participation was about 300%. We have a Venezuelan friend who described how it worked-school buses would transport the same people to various polling stations-where they wold vote for “el jefe”:mad: ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/23 "2013-03-06T13:36:40Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I don’t get why everyone is against Chavez. I’m guessing his cozy relationships with Cuba, North Korea, Iran, China, and who knows who else might have had a little to do with it. I wouldn’t have put it past him to have Al Queda-in-Venezuela if he could have managed that, and I’m willing to bet he had fingers in more than one drug cartel. I don’t think he was a very nice man. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/24 "2013-03-06T14:45:01Z")
I’ve said in the past that I don’t see Chavez as being the equivalent of Castro or Lenin or Kim Il Sung or Gaddafi. Chavez was not an absolute dictator and he did have a lot of popular support from the citizens he represented. What Chavez was was the equivalent of Richard Daley or Boss Tweed - a machine politician who fixed the elections and ran the graft while keeping the voters happy with a mix of demagoguery and handouts. He wasn’t evil but Venezuela would be better off without him just as the big cities were better off without the political machines. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/25 "2013-03-06T15:01:35Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What’s so great about Cuban medical treatment? Apparently, not much. At least not in Chavez’ case. As for why everybody hates him. He rigged the system to make himself president-for-life, removing term limits for precisely this purpose. He was a classic dictator who supressed opposition (including siezing control of media outlets that were critical of him) and used thuggery to intimidate voters. Trust me, the world is better place now that he’s left it. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/26 "2013-03-06T15:05:26Z")
As an aside, there’s a part of that that’s wondering if, after Fidel Castro finally croaks, if his brother will be forced out and/or killed shortly after. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/27 "2013-03-06T16:27:27Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > As for the votes cast for Chavez..lets just say that participation was about 300%. We have a Venezuelan friend who described how it worked-school buses would transport the same people to various polling stations-where they wold vote for “el jefe”:mad: Yet this process was certified as generally free and fair by observers from multiple international agencies? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/28 "2013-03-06T18:21:02Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Apparently, not much. At least not in Chavez’ case. > > As for why everybody hates him. He rigged the system to make himself president-for-life, removing term limits for precisely this purpose. He was a classic dictator who supressed opposition (including siezing control of media outlets that were critical of him) and used thuggery to intimidate voters. Trust me, the world is better place now that he’s left it. I don’t see the point in term limits, if most people in the country want someone in power, that’s democracy. And that was Chavez, a democratically elected leader, as certified by all reputable observers, despite what some butthurt rightists in Florida might think, or claim to think. And he didn’t seize any media outlets, he declined to renew the broadcast licence of a television company that had been part of a coup to overthrow democracy. If he was a dictator then he would have been lining people up against the wall after that incident, not being put back in power by the people and then calmly waiting for the expiration of the company’s broadcasting licence before deciding they are unsuitable people to broadcast to the nation and withholding the renewal of the licence. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/29 "2013-03-06T18:29:12Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Apparently, not much. At least not in Chavez’ case. > > As for why everybody hates him. He rigged the system to make himself president-for-life, removing term limits for precisely this purpose. He was a classic dictator who supressed opposition (including siezing control of media outlets that were critical of him) and used thuggery to intimidate voters. Trust me, the world is better place now that he’s left it. I think Huey Long might be a better comparison. If you read Greg Palast about the guy you get a VERY different impression. He’s very anti-US in part because the US has been happy to help out his opponents\*, to the point of recognizing the attempted coup against him right off the bat. Chavex had expected it and prepared for it, which is why it was unsuccessful, and he tremained in power. But Chavez has been active in land redistribution, nationalizing industries, and other pro-lower class stuff and against the upper class, which naturally despised him. He paid off large World Bank loans for Argentina and other South American countries. If you live up in New England, you know that through Citgo he has been donating fuel oil to needy families. After Katrina he sent relief ships with generators and suppplies to New Orleans – which the Bush government turned away. you can argue that Palast – who has interviewed Chavez in person – is biased himself, but the point is that you’re not getting a complete story from other news outlets, either. Natually, he’s covering Chavez’ death now on his website: > **[Greg Palast](https://www.gregpalast.com/)** > > Greg Palast is known for his investigative reports for The Guardian, BBC Television, Rolling Stone and his string of New York Times bestsellers. \*if not actually active behind the scenes in ousting him. > **[Vaya con Dios, Hugo Chavez, mi Amigo - Greg Palast](https://www.gregpalast.com/vaya-con-dios-hugo-chavez-mi-amigo/#more-7874)** > > For BBC Television, Palast met several times with Hugo Chavez, who passed away today ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/30 "2013-03-06T19:10:58Z")
And Michael Moore (to complete the Very Lefty websites) is covering the same topic, making the same points today (Mar 6 2013- this is the general link to his site, so it won’t be relevant after today) > **[Michael Moore | Substack](https://www.michaelmoore.com/)** > > I was born in Flint and raised on a dirt street by loving parents, two sisters and a lot of Green Giant in a can. I believe we have less than 8yrs to convince Earth not to wipe itself clean of us. Click to read Michael Moore, a Substack publication... ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/31 "2013-03-06T20:55:48Z")
Aside from a bunch of people who are butt hurt over how he stepped on their empire, I still don’t see what the deal is. If the people elected him and the elections were observed and there were no problems. I personally don’t care if he stayed in power for the next gazillion years. That is the point of them being their own country. THEY get to pick who they like, even if the US government doesn’t like the guy. (BTW, there are also people who are trying to get rid of term limitation on the POTUS as well.) I think the country has improved under his leadership when you look at some global (independent) assessments. Didn’t they improve in education and healthcare? Didn’t they reduce the number of people living in poverty? Those aren’t small tasks and few of the dictators that some are trying to compare him to have actually increased literacy rates or reduced poverty rates in their countries. So, again… sounds like a bunch of butt hurt elitists crying in their soup. Then there is the Citgo program. In addition to the north east states, I’ve read of Citgo sending entire tankers of free oil to remote Alaskan villages when the Gov of Alaska was sitting on their butt doing nothing because they wanted Federal Taxpayers to send aid instead of dipping into their oil money to help their own citizens. Then there is the [eagle habitat off New Jersey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petty_Island). I like that the island was bought out from under developers and will be kept as habitat and I think Chavez was personally responsible for that. I think he did it as a gesture to the US people. Venezuela has always been corrupt (since long before Chavez). So, it isn’t like he invented the idea. Heck, go to Rome and look at the corruption there. Much of what happens in the US would be corruption if it weren’t for lobbyists who’ve campaigned to legalize their clients’ activities. I don’t think Chavez was perfect, but I think he did a good job for the average person in his country and I think he made some smart moves that enabled Venezuela to have more influence in their region. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/32 "2013-03-06T21:43:42Z")
Hugo Chavez was a wonderful guy-under him opposition parties were blacklisted, and their ability to use the media curtailed. The “Strong Bolivar” (Chavez’s currency) has been devalued 3 times this year. Poverty has increased geometrically…and you have the little matter of his $2 billion personal fortune! Yeah, the “useful idiots” like Sean Penn and Mike Moore are crying their eyes out…but few people will actually shed a tear for this crook. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/33 "2013-03-06T21:50:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Hugo Chavez was a wonderful guy-under him opposition parties were blacklisted, and their ability to use the media curtailed. The “Strong Bolivar” (Chavez’s currency) has been devalued 3 times this year. Poverty has increased geometrically.. > . According to the Huffington Post: > [@](#): > > Chavez’s social programs won him enduring support: Poverty rates declined from 50 percent at the beginning of his term in 1999 to 32 percent in the second half of 2011. Although: > [@](#): > > Poverty declined during Chavez’s presidency amid a historic boom in oil earnings, but critics said he failed to use the windfall of hundreds of billions of dollars to develop the country’s economy. > **[Hugo Chavez Dead At 58](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hugo-chavez-dead_n_2296423?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics)** > > Hugo Chavez Dead At 58 I’m not saying Chavez was an ideal, by any means, but the reporting about him in most of the media pretty clearly has significant gaps. He was a much more complex figure than is generally realized. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/34 "2013-03-06T21:57:53Z")
I am very surprised about him having lasted this long. I had the definite impression that for a while he has been basically a lump of walking cancer. One thing Chavez apparently didn’t manage well was criminality in the cities. A Venezuelan friend of mine told me, basically, that after dusk the streets are a no-go area unless you are feeling really foolhardy. I think that he has been relatively lucky to “check out” at this juncture – looking at all the programs he had implemented, I had the feeling that he was spending way more money than was coming into the coffers of the state, and that in the not-too-distant future the country would be facing technical bankruptcy. Better for him not be around at that point. Let’s see what happens with his successor. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/35 "2013-03-06T22:02:12Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Yeah, the “useful idiots” like Sean Penn and Mike Moore are crying their eyes out..but few people will actually shed a tear for this crook. :rolleyes: Look at the reports, of independent journalists of many countries, _from Venezuela_. There are millions of people mourning him. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/36 "2013-03-06T22:33:07Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Look at the reports, of independent journalists of many countries, _from Venezuela_. There are millions of people mourning him. Think about who you’re responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/37 "2013-03-06T23:16:18Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Look at the reports, of independent journalists of many countries, _from Venezuela_. There are millions of people mourning him. Thats not exactly a good measure of his worth. There were millions mourning Kim Jong Il. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/38 "2013-03-06T23:39:06Z")
I’m not talking about his worth, just his popularity in his own country. Disputing the idea that _they_ largely see his death as, > [@ralph124c](#): > > …very positive for the Venezuelan people…a new day for the long suffering people of Venezuela:) And FWIW, the expressions of dismay among Venezuelans look a lot more genuine to me than those for Kim did in NK. There are a lot more ordinary citizens talking to foreign journalists about it, for one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/39 "2013-03-06T23:52:58Z")
Overall he squandered a lot of the countries wealth. He absolutely blacklisted journalist and likely murdered his political enemies. Better than the alternative? I don’t know but he certainly mismanaged the oil and really, it’s never a good sign when you have to re-draft the constitution to stay in office. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130/40 "2013-03-07T00:25:02Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Thats not exactly a good measure of his worth. There were millions mourning Kim Jong Il. Yes, Comrade..it is highly recommended that you mourn the Great Leader! The man taking over is an ex-bus driver..things should go well! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-hugo-chavez-dead-at-58/652130.md?page=3)