# Breaking news: terrorists attack French publisher, 11 dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213 "2015-01-07T12:32:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/241 "2015-01-09T00:32:49Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Not sure what you mean by fanatical. I’m sure Dearborn, Michigan has less jihad threats, but I don’t see many Islam leaders condemning the violence of IS. All I’ve seen is two leaders doing the condemning - one former Malaysian leader and the former prime minister of Indonesia. Malaysia and Istanbul has remained mute on the violence of IS. Pope Crackhead Francis couldn’t convince them on his recent trip. And the honor killings we saw a lot of last year don’t happen in a mountainous region with a population of 20 people. [United Nations and Human Rights Watch report](http://maps.thefullwiki.org/Honor_killing) one honor killing PER WEEK in Istanbul, over 1,000 in five years. In 2006, approximately 133 women were executed in Basra. 76 for refusing Islamic teachings and 47 honor kills. Even six women killed via honor in Berlin. I’ve heard from many, many more Muslim leaders – on TV and statements I’ve read online – renouncing the violence from yesterday and in many other places around the world (including ISIS, which I assume is what you meant with IS). All those honor killings suck. Luckily, most Muslims don’t do that. > [@](#): > > Yes, yes, and yes. Let’s remember that fanatical sects come from (drumroll) the regular/normal sects. The sects don’t originate a new religion. It’s a spin-off from the original. Not as much fun as Soap/Benson or Happy Days/Laverne & Shirley. I’m no fan of religion, but most practitioners of any religion are peaceful and decent folks. The fanatic spin offs suck. Fuck those guys. Peace be upon the rest. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/242 "2015-01-09T00:36:44Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > but I don’t see many Islam leaders condemning the violence of IS [Think Muslims Haven’t Condemned ISIS? Think Again](http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/243 "2015-01-09T00:54:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Define Liberal Democracy. Did Mississippi practice it in 1960? 1860? Does France practice it today? Ukraine? > > I think if you come up with a definition that isn’t too exclusionary or arbitrary, we would find Muslim-majority areas that fit it. > > Is Malaysia a Liberal Democracy? Kosovo? Bangladesh? To answer your questions: No, No, Yes, I don’t know, I don’t know but I doubt it, I don’t know, No. OK, let’s rephrase. Of all the muslim cities in the world, what % of them would you agree to move to, become a citizen of and raise your family? Do you like those odds? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/244 "2015-01-09T01:01:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To answer your questions: No, No, Yes, I don’t know, I don’t know but I doubt it, I don’t know, No. > > OK, let’s rephrase. Of all the muslim cities in the world, what % of them would you agree to move to, become a citizen of and raise your family? Do you like those odds? What are the options? Random Muslim city, random Christian city, random Hindu city, etc.? If so, who knows what the percentages would be – probably pretty shitty for Muslim, Christian, and Hindu cities, a very very small selection for Jewish cities, and then some outliers like Buddhist with good and bad cities as well as the even more unusual ones like Shinto, which might have the highest percentage of “good” cities. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/245 "2015-01-09T01:07:38Z")
> [@andros](#): > > [Think Muslims Haven’t Condemned ISIS? Think Again](http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html) Form your article we get a high ranking cleric, Egypt’s highest religious authority, a secretary general for Organization of Islamic Cooperation, an Arab League chief, and a council on American-Islamic Relations condemn it. I’m sure a City Appointed Muckraker, White House pages and backwoods preachers condemn them too… But I was looking for Islam leaders. Like, someone in charge of nations or national security. > [@](#): > > By **ME** “I don’t see many Islam leaders condemning the violence of IS. All I’ve seen is two leaders doing the condemning - one former Malaysian leader and the former prime minister of Indonesia.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/246 "2015-01-09T01:11:02Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Form your article we get a high ranking cleric, Egypt’s highest religious authority, a secretary general for Organization of Islamic Cooperation, an Arab League chief, and a council on American-Islamic Relations condemn it. I’m sure a City Appointed Muckraker & White House pages disagree too… > > But I was looking for Islam leaders. Like, someone in charge of nations or national security. Look [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Countries_and_supranational_organisations) for condemnations of the Paris attacks. There are many, many Muslim national leaders represented. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/247 "2015-01-09T01:14:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What are the options? Random Muslim city, random Christian city, random Hindu city, etc.? If so, who knows what the percentages would be – probably pretty shitty for Muslim, Christian, and Hindu cities, a very very small selection for Jewish cities, and then some outliers like Buddhist with good and bad cities as well as the even more unusual ones like Shinto, which might have the highest percentage of “good” cities. Really? You don’t think there’s a difference between “random Christian city” and “random Muslim city”? _ **REALLY???** _ That’s what Bill Maher likes to call “liberal nonsense” when it comes to Islam. And he’s an expert!! I’m not talking about living there as an ex-pat. I’m talking being a citizen and raising a family. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/248 "2015-01-09T01:30:33Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > As long as we’re just “putting out questions”, ever hear about a work of alleged art called “Piss Christ”? Bottle of urine with a crucifix in it. Or the picture of the Virgin Mary made of various shades of elephant poo? No? Then shut up. {…} Ooh ooh, Mr. [DEL][COLOR=“Black”]Kotter[/DEL][/COLOR] **Fenris** , I have! Do you have any evidence that Andres Serrano’s photograph _Piss Christ_ or Chris Ofili’s painting _The Holy Virgin Mary_ were created for the purpose of causing offense? Yes, killing people over these things is, dare I say it, wrong. Thinking that the reaction of the religious to things that they decide offends their religious sensibilities, whether that offense is intended or not, is _fundamentally_ different is also wrong. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/249 "2015-01-09T01:34:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s rephrase. Of all the muslim cities in the world, what % of them would you agree to move to, become a citizen of and raise your family? Do you like those odds? None of them, since as an American-trained civil rights lawyer, I’m unemployable anywhere else in my chosen field. Indeed, I’m damn near unemployable most places in the US in my chosen field. There are maybe 25 cities with my job. What do you imagine this proves? If you think it is a measure of something intrinsic about Islam, how about we ask the question this way: You will be transported to a random Christian-majority or random Muslim-majority city, as either a non-Christian or non-Muslim respectively, in a random year between 714 and 2014 C.E. Which do you choose? Oh, and to spice it up, let’s say you’ll randomly be assigned a gender and racial identity. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/250 "2015-01-09T01:46:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > None of them, since as an American-trained civil rights lawyer, I’m unemployable anywhere else in my chosen field. Indeed, I’m damn near unemployable most places in the US in my chosen field. There are maybe 25 cities with my job. What do you imagine this proves? > > If you think it is a measure of something intrinsic about Islam, how about we ask the question this way: You will be transported to a random Christian-majority or random Muslim-majority city, as either a non-Christian or non-Muslim respectively, in a random year between 714 and 2014 C.E. Which do you choose? Oh, and to spice it up, let’s say you’ll randomly be assigned a gender and racial identity. You face much more restrictions on personal freedom as a Muslim in, say, Malaysia than as a non-Muslim. I could move there and, you know, drink, have sex, change my religion, etc., because I’m not a Muslim. Most of my co-ethnics there could do those things too. Malays and Muslims (almost all Malays are automatically considered Muslim) could not. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/251 "2015-01-09T01:51:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All those honor killings suck. Luckily, most Muslims don’t do that. A significant number, though, believe that honour killings are sometimes justified. Including a majority of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Egyptians. > **[Chapter 3: Morality](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/)** > > Most Muslims agree on certain moral principles. For example, in nearly all countries surveyed, a majority says it is necessary to believe in God to be a ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/252 "2015-01-09T02:15:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, you’re now claiming you’re not a racist. > > Glad to hear that. > > Is that why you refer to Muslims as “Pakis”? I used paki just as a short form for Pakistani my brother. I am not racist. India n pak. is one ‘race’ anyways. My grandparents came from present day pak to India. (When I google my last name, indians who come up in the search result are hindus, and Pakistanis with that last name are all Muslims) Religion of peace is a divisive force. It was the reason for partition of India n bloodshed n so many riots afterwards to this date. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/253 "2015-01-09T02:19:01Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > I used paki just as a short form for Pakistani my brother. > > I am not racist. India n pak. is one ‘race’ anyways. My grandparents came from present day pak to India. (When I google my last name, indians who come up in the search result are hindus, and Pakistanis with that last name are all Muslims) > > Religion of peace is a divisive force. It was the reason for partition of India n bloodshed n so many riots afterwards to this date. Indians aren’t ‘one race’, they’re a mixture of several different racial groups. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/254 "2015-01-09T02:21:55Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Ooh ooh, Mr. [DEL][COLOR=“Black”]Kotter[/DEL][/COLOR] **Fenris** , I have! > > Do you have any evidence that Andres Serrano’s photograph _Piss Christ_ or Chris Ofili’s painting _The Holy Virgin Mary_ were created for the purpose of causing offense? > > Yes, killing people over these things is, dare I say it, wrong. Thinking that the reaction of the religious to things that they decide offends their religious sensibilities, whether that offense is intended or not, is _fundamentally_ different is also wrong. > > CMC fnord! I don’t understand your point here. Regarding _Piss Christ_, let’s at least try to be intellectually honest. Serrano’s intent is secondary–he’s a U.S. citizen who, unless he was raised in a cave, would have some inkling that it would cause offence to Christians. His production of the piece was, on at least some level, a provocation, and Christians took it as such. That particular piece is not really to my taste, but I did enjoy something else that provoked Christians: Scorsese’s _The Last Temptation of Christ_, which I found to be thoughtful and quite interesting. But again, it’s no surprise that it’d be seen as blasphemy. Artistic intent is irrelevant. Nobody cared to listen to the artists involved in _Last Temptation_ when Christians picketed theatres (carefully avoiding the murder of any theatre managers, mind you). Did Salman Rushdie’s artistic intent matter? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/255 "2015-01-09T02:29:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It’s easy to say “THEY should reprint to cartoons”. I encourage people recommeding such action to put their money where their mouths are and publish them in their Facebook/twitter/blog with their full real name and work/home address, if they want to show us how to make a stand. > > It’s only the bravest (or stupidest or most reckless) that purposely offend those who may kill them. Yeah, that kind of describes [Popehat](https://www.popehat.com/2015/01/07/charlie-hebdo-open-thread/). ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/256 "2015-01-09T02:32:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Indians aren’t ‘one race’, they’re a mixture of several different racial groups. Ya but if you speak broadly , they are one ‘race’. South Indians are slightly darker on average because of lack of winters season in the south. In a big majority of cases, you can not differntiate between an indian from one part from an indian of another part just by looks. Language maybe different but is derived from same source Some indians frm east india do have Mongoloid features but the aryan-dravidian theory is all bull shit. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/257 "2015-01-09T02:47:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s rephrase. Of all the muslim cities in the world, what % of them would you agree to move to, become a citizen of and raise your family? Do you like those odds? Good chunks of Bosnia (Muslim majority areas) and Turkey I’d move to. Albania and Macedonia might be options. Kosovo has issues but I’m as concerned with the Christian part of the population as Muslims. Malaysia seems nice. I’m supposed to have a percentage of cities though??? I’ll get back to you in about a decade. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/258 "2015-01-09T03:19:07Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > But I was looking for Islam leaders. Like, someone in charge of nations or national security. I’m sorry, but I have not a single everloving fucking clue what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/259 "2015-01-09T03:22:15Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > I don’t understand your point here. > > Regarding _Piss Christ_, let’s at least try to be intellectually honest. Serrano’s intent is secondary–he’s a U.S. citizen who, unless he was raised in a cave, would have some inkling that it would cause offence to Christians. His production of the piece was, on at least some level, a provocation, and Christians took it as such. {…} And everyone that draws a, for lack of a better word, “Muslim” cartoon is also provoking offense. So what? That’s their right. Hecklers have no right to a veto. If intent matters at all, then what is the intent of the “Muslim” cartoonists? Yeah _Piss Christ_ offends the sensibilities of the ignorant masses looking for things to be offended by. On the other hand, > [@](#): > > {…} Sister Wendy Beckett, an art critic and Catholic nun, stated in a television interview with Bill Moyers that she regarded the work as not blasphemous but a statement on “what we have done to Christ”: that is, the way contemporary society has come to regard Christ and the values he represents. {…}[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ#Reception)[/RIGHT] Now, who do you think has the clearer understanding of what (the raised strict Roman Catholic, Christian) Serrano was trying to express, Sister Wendy or Bill Donohue? > [@Lobot](#): > > {…} Did Salman Rushdie’s artistic intent matter? No. He’s free to write what ever he wants to and if it offends someone they shouldn’t be reading Rushdie. Your right to be offended stops at my right to be offensive. We do this all the time. “Gays should shut up about marriage 'cause there are other countries where just being gay is a crime punished by death”. “Serrano (et al.) should be happy we just want to wipe his “art” off the face of the Earth, if he made _Piss Mohammad_ he’d be wiped off the face of the Earth”. The reaction is the same, it’s only the desired penalty that’s different, they both seek to destroy the thing that offends them. One of them we tolerate and one we don’t. The larger point here is that we shouldn’t spend _all_ of our time looking at the beam in Muslim eyes and ignore the mote that’s still, very much, in ours. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/260 "2015-01-09T03:53:26Z")
**crowmanyclouds** , I now see your point. I do agree that conservative Christian groups often tend to want to stifle free speech whenever they see blasphemy (real or imagined). It’s not good at all, and I don’t excuse it. But let’s say I want to draw a cartoon that is critical of Christianity. All I can expect to lose is some social standing. I sure as hell won’t expect to lose my life. This sort of thing means we can openly discuss the failings of Christianity and Christian institutions, and free speech is unaffected. Islamic extremists are attempting to stifle critical thought and debate through murder and violence. That has a very different result that has a concrete effect on public discourse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213.md?page=14)