# Breaking news: terrorists attack French publisher, 11 dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213 "2015-01-07T12:32:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/301 "2015-01-09T15:08:07Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > +1 > > Dead wrong. I can think Christianity is a shitty belief system without thinking that my girlfriend is a bad person for being a catholic. Similarly, I think Islam is a toxic, dangerous ideology that we’d all be significantly better off without. This doesn’t mean I want all Muslims to convert or die. (Well, okay, I’d _like_ for them to convert, but I’m not going to demand it of them.) > > …Really? I’ll give you a hint - the majority of places with a Muslim majority? They don’t look so good. The radicals have this weird tendency to take hold. > > Some locales where Christians are a massive supermajority: > > - New York City > - Boston > - Los Angeles > - San Francisco (okay that one might be pushing it) > - Kansas City > - Portland, ME > > …I mean, sure, there’s _Detroit_, but that’s not a post-apocalyptic shithole because of radical Christians coming in and ruining everything. > > Trying to prove something by defining your terms is kind of a complete waste of time? > > Seriously, trying to demonstrate “this criticism is racist” by pointing to a certain dictionary definition of “race” ignores completely that in rejecting your definition of “racist”, the person you’re arguing has clearly also rejected your definition of _“race”_. So stating your definition of race just means talking past each other. > > …That, and Merriam-Webster is a piece of shit. I always marvel at the American obsession with race. It’s aproduct of US history to view racism as somehow uniquely bad - perhaps _the_ bad - attitude. Really, racism is merely a subset of _bigotry_, which comes in all flavours. Racism is that form of bigotry particular to racial differences. Other forms of bigotry concern _religious_ differences. Bigotry, in turn, is merely a subset of a much larger category - ignorant generalizations and stereotypes. Bigotry concerns ignorant generalizations and stereotypes concerning _people_. It is also, of course, possible to have ignorant generalizations and stereotypes concerning _ideas_. It is indeed possible for a person to hold ignorant generalizations and sterotypes concerning _ideas_, without being bigoted against the _people_ that hold them; it is possible to be bigoted against _people_, without being bigoted against them because of their _race_. But in the end, these differences, while they exist, tend not to matter very much. People who hold ignorant generalizations and stereotypes concering a group’s _ideas_ usually (but not always) also hold hold ignorant generalizations and stereotypes about the _group’s individuals_. How could this not be so? If I was (say) of the opinion that a group’s ideas that they hold dear were truly hateful (say, “Christianity teaches people to be bigots”), how could I not find the _members of the group_ distasteful? After all, the members of the group hold those ideas! (or so I think). Really, what we end up arguing is the precise flavour of ignorance at work. The more significant argument is whether a view is based on reasoned critique, or on false generalizations and stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/302 "2015-01-09T15:10:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s probably a difference. I think the percentage for both would be pretty low, but probably a lot lower for Muslim cities. I think the percent for “Christian” would be at least 50% since that would include the US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia, NZ. South and Central America might not be too enticing, but much of it is pretty good. Eastern Europe not so great. Africa might be problematic. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything at all special about the tenets of Islam that make a larger percentage of Muslims violent or supporters of violence, even though that’s a fact. There were times in the past that Christianity and other religions were as violent or more violent, statistically speaking (most likely, considering that we can’t get good stats on beliefs in the past), as modern Muslims. There were times when Islam was much more a force for progress than contemporary Christianity (and vice versa). > > So I think it’s mostly a historical coincidence. It’s not anything special about Islam – it’s something special about some of the countries and regions in which Islam dominates. I agree. Islam needs to go through some kind of reformation, and that is probably tied to the geopolitical situation which ain’t too good. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/303 "2015-01-09T15:10:32Z")
Consider this for a moment: Religions are huge collections of holy books, doctrines, philosophies, hierarchies, etc. They have all sorts of parables, rules, and all sorts of nuance and complication (though usually contradictory). What are the odds that any two religions are _exactly_ in terms of values like how much they encourage violence towards nonbelievers or subjugation of women? It’s astronomically unlikely. But “everything is equal” is a comforting, easy, worthless point of view that’s easy to adhere to. It requires no nuance, no analysis, and no contradiction by unpleasant facts. ---
**Author:** ![scrotchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@scrotchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scrotchy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/304 "2015-01-09T15:15:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All this is fine (minus the insults) – I just don’t think it’s anything special about Islam or Sharia that’s driving it… just as there was nothing special about Christianity or Christian theocracies that drove the atrocities and misogyny of past centuries in Christian lands. There’s no “true” form of Islam that demands violence, just as there was no “true” form of Christianity that demanded the Inquisition, Jewish pogroms, burning witches, etc. All these texts are interpreted in different ways. > > The fanatics suck. I’m not a fan of religion in general, but it’s the fanatics that cause most of the violence, not the religious as a group. > > I argue this both to try to be accurate and to be pragmatic. I think the best way to deal with this issue is to call out the bad actors while not lumping in those who aren’t trying to kill us. Terrorism isn’t caused by, for example, poor treatment of women – there are plenty of places on earth in which women are treated like shit but that produce relatively few or zero terrorists. I think rolling up all these issues can make things more difficult and more complicated, not more simple. I don’t really see alot of insult here, except the last part where I noted you were excusing the basic problem. I’m new around here though I have read the forum for about 3 years…this is the pit I believe so feel free to not waste bandwidth pointing out subtle jabs that actually should have been more aggressive. You are clueless but of course you are not alone, which enables this BS to continue instead of the world community having a real discussion about the basic problem here. There are COUNTRIES that have sharia law and the basis of their government right fucking now. The ‘fanatics’ are given cover and strength in their conviction by this fact. I also wrote that other religions have their own past, but they have evolved. You pointing out that the crusades happened, for example, has nothing to do with this discussion about the real time problem. Why don’t you do some research like I suggested. The fact you say ‘there is nothing special about sharia law’ shows you don’t know WTF you are talking about. Maybe you should purchase a plane ticket to Saudi and hang out there for awhile, then report back how there is nothing special about Islam vs human rights and western democracy. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/305 "2015-01-09T15:20:53Z")
Even Kristoff admits: > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/opinion/nicholas-kristof-lessons-from-the-charlie-hebdo-shooting-in-paris.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/opinion/nicholas-kristof-lessons-from-the-charlie-hebdo-shooting-in-paris.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region) > > Then there’s the oppression of women. Of the bottom 10 countries in the World Economic Forum’s gender gap report, I count nine as majority Muslim. Can we stop selling women out in the name of religious tolerance? That’s be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/306 "2015-01-09T15:31:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Consider this for a moment: Religions are huge collections of holy books, doctrines, philosophies, hierarchies, etc. They have all sorts of parables, rules, and all sorts of nuance and complication (though usually contradictory). What are the odds that any two religions are _exactly_ in terms of values like how much they encourage violence towards nonbelievers or subjugation of women? It’s astronomically unlikely. > > But “everything is equal” is a comforting, easy, worthless point of view that’s easy to adhere to. It requires no nuance, no analysis, and no contradiction by unpleasant facts. Religions are not unitary. Not all who are described under the umbrella of “muslim”, “jewish” or “christian” are the same. Nor do religions operate in a vaccum devoid of cultural context. Rather, the believers of any religion exist in societies rooted in time and place. Looking to the causes of why Muslim societies are, in general, so medieval and backwards, it is no doubt comforting to place the blame on a single factor - Islam. However, a view based on “nuance and analysis” may, _just may_, take notice of the fact that, some time around 1500 or so, European civilization (roughly, “Christendom”) overtook the “Dar al-Islam” in the civilization stakes - became more wealthy, more powerful, and (over time) developed more comprehensive and advanced ideas concerning human rights, the role of women, intellectual freedom, etc. While many have argued why this happened, few these days seriously claim it happened because of the inherent superiority of Christianity over Islam as a religion (Max Weber aside). Indeed, it is likely that the change was based on factors having nothing to do with religion at all. To provide but another example, Buddhism is often held out as a religion inspiring peace - and an example of this is the current Dalai Lama. However, that again is largely the result of historical contingencies - the Dalai Lama really has no choice but to be a peaceful figure, as he was forced out of Tibet by the Chinese, who have overwhelming military power. Previous Dalai Lamas (really, in Tibetan ideology, the same Dalai Lama - he’s reincarnated) were hardly “peaceful”. They suppressed riuval Buddhist sects by force, and ruled Tibet as warlords. > [@](#): > > Rise of the Gelugpa schools[edit]Yonten Gyatso (1589–1616), the fourth Dalai Lama and a non-Tibetan, was the grandson of Altan Khan. He died in 1616 in his mid-twenties. Some people say he was poisoned but there is no real evidence one way or the other.[48] > > Lobsang Gyatso (Wylie transliteration: Blo-bzang Rgya-mtsho), the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, (1617–1682) was the first Dalai Lama to wield effective political power over central Tibet. > > The fifth Dalai Lama is known for unifying the Tibetan heartland under the control of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism, after defeating the rival Kagyu and Jonang sects and the secular ruler, the Tsangpa prince, in a prolonged civil war. His efforts were successful in part because of aid from Güshi Khan, a powerful Oirat military leader. The Jonang monasteries were either closed or forcibly converted, and that school remained in hiding until the latter part of the 20th century. With the Güshi Khan as a largely uninvolved overlord, the 5th Dalai Lama and his intimates established a civil administration which is referred to by historians as the Lhasa state. The core leadership of this government was also referred to as the Ganden Podrang. > **[History of Tibet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#Gelugpa_order)** > > While the Tibetan plateau has been inhabited since pre-historic times, most of Tibet's history went unrecorded until the creation of Tibetan script in the 7th century. Tibetan texts refer to the kingdom of Zhangzhung (c. 500 BCE – 625 CE) as the precursor of later Tibetan kingdoms and the originators of the Bon religion. While mythical accounts of early rulers of the Yarlung dynasty exist, historical accounts begin with the introduction of Tibetan script from the unified Tibetan Empire in the 7... ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/307 "2015-01-09T15:42:36Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Consider this for a moment: Religions are huge collections of holy books, doctrines, philosophies, hierarchies, etc. They have all sorts of parables, rules, and all sorts of nuance and complication (though usually contradictory). What are the odds that any two religions are _exactly_ in terms of values like how much they encourage violence towards nonbelievers or subjugation of women? It’s astronomically unlikely. > > But “everything is equal” is a comforting, easy, worthless point of view that’s easy to adhere to. It requires no nuance, no analysis, and no contradiction by unpleasant facts. You want to assert that a given body of texts and doctrines and philosophies will create different tendencies in people who follow them, wherever they would have been adopted or followed, and therefore that Islam can be said to be worse than Christianity (or other religions) because of those observed tendencies. But this approach is wrong for two independent reasons. First, there is no universal agreement among Muslims about the doctrines, philosophies, or hierarchies that govern them, so labeling one of those sets as “Islam” is only doing the bidding of the Bin Ladens of the world. And second, those doctrines, philosophies, and hierarchies are themselves the products of non-religious forces. If you plunk a Quranic verse down in a country with an oil economy during the colonial period, you’re going to get different interpretations of it than if you plunked it down in the heart of the industrial revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/308 "2015-01-09T15:50:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > While many have argued why this happened, few these days seriously claim it happened because of the inherent superiority of Christianity over Islam as a religion (Max Weber aside). Indeed, it is likely that the change was based on factors having nothing to do with religion at all. Of course. However, it would also be disingenuous to not attribute _any_ causality to the nature of the belief systems being compared. “[Render unto Caesar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar)” and all that… ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/309 "2015-01-09T15:54:37Z")
As we all know from Jared Diamond’s best-selling book, _Guns, Germs, Steel, and Certain Verses from Scripture that Made Us Better at Dominating the World_. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/310 "2015-01-09T15:59:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree with those statements, but “Islam is shitty everywhere” is still both bigoted and factually incorrect, in my opinion. Did you see my clarification of that statement? > [@SenorBeef](#): > > “Islam is shitty everywhere” is a shorthand for my greater statement, which is that the more a society is dominated by Islam, the shittier it is. Do you really feel that statement is factually incorrect? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything at all special about the tenets of Islam that make a larger percentage of Muslims violent or supporters of violence, even though that’s a fact. There were times in the past that Christianity and other religions were as violent or more violent, statistically speaking (most likely, considering that we can’t get good stats on beliefs in the past), as modern Muslims. There were times when Islam was much more a force for progress than contemporary Christianity (and vice versa). > > So I think it’s mostly a historical coincidence. It’s not anything special about Islam – it’s something special about some of the countries and regions in which Islam dominates. I think it’s too simple to simply rule out the doctrine of a religion as a causitive factor in people’s behavior. We’re talking about the most important thing in their lives - their religious beliefs that they believe wholeheartedly and are more important to them than any other factor. And your assertion is that the actual nature of these beliefs and doctrines do not in any way affect the behavior of the people who dedicate their lives to them. This is extremely implausible. However, even if I grant you this point, so what? What battle have you won? Then we go from “Islam is a shitty religion, and it makes people behave in a shitty way” to “the cultures that have adopted Islam are shitty cultures, and it makes people behave in a shitty way” I would say that both are almost certainly true. “Christianity was violent 1000 years ago, therefore all religions are equal and you can’t criticize Islam” may indeed shed some light on how much a culture affects a religion and vice versa, but it’s not actually useful for influencing my beliefs about people alive today. Yes, Christianity was shittier a millennium ago. Islam is shitty RIGHT NOW. The whole world was shittier a long time ago. Slavery was widespread. Women were subjugated and treated as property. Killing people for being the wrong religion was common. The western world has grown up tremendously in the past century - we’ve unshacked ourselves from those previously nearly ubiquitous flaws of civilization to advance a great amount. (And indeed, and this is a separate discussion - a big part of that growing up is that we’re much less religious.) The Islam world has not. They revel in their barbarism, and see their horrific traditions threatened and this makes them want to lash out violently against the parts of the world that aren’t shitty. Christianity from a thousand years ago isn’t a problem today. Islamic-dominated states and cultures are. > [@Oukile](#): > > \*\*Guys, this is the Pit here, not GD. \*\* So what about you all STFU with your pointless debating about islam and atheism and liberalism and whatever and let us vent (or post info) about what is happening? Go to a fucking news site. What kind of asshole comes into a message board and tries to squash discussion? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/311 "2015-01-09T16:03:44Z")
Quash. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/312 "2015-01-09T16:07:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As we all know from Jared Diamond’s best-selling book, _Guns, Germs, Steel, and Certain Verses from Scripture that Made Us Better at Dominating the World_. So, I guess you’re referring to your copy of _“[All Religions Are the Same](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate#Religious_basis)”_, then. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/313 "2015-01-09T16:08:16Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > However, even if I grant you this point, so what? What battle have you won? Then we go from “Islam is a shitty religion, and it makes people behave in a shitty way” to “the cultures that have adopted Islam are shitty cultures, and it makes people behave in a shitty way” Not quite. It goes to “the cultures that have adopted Islam are disproportionately located in poor regions which, particularly in the last 150 years, have been characterized by poverty, massive income inequality, imperialism and warfare. They also practice Islam.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/314 "2015-01-09T16:11:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It’s not like being Brown was rainbows and candy in France before that. Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if by the end of the month (heck, by the end of the week) someone kills some random brown person “for being Muslim”. Of course, the victim will merely be brown, maybe even Christian. Heck, we already have a few cases like that in the US. The one I recall, because it was recently in the news, was someone pushing a brown person in front of a train because–and I kid you not–the woman who committed the murder was upset that “Hindus and Muslims attacked the Twin Towers”. I, sadly, foresee some “good Christians” perpetrating actual violence against others very soon because of this attack in Paris. By the way, isn’t Christianity also “the religion of peace”? Could’ve fooled me sometimes with the behavior of certain of its adherents recently. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/315 "2015-01-09T16:12:27Z")
Is it a universal quality of poor countries to subjugate women, stone them to death for being raped, throw acid in their face for learning to read or daring to let the the sun fall on their fucking nose, persecute people from other religions, often in a violent way, and a whole myriad of other things that are quite common amongst the Muslim world? Do you think that if we ran a comparison of the entire world, and matched countries up based on poverty, income inequality, and warfare, that we wouldn’t find anywhere that was less shitty? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/316 "2015-01-09T16:13:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think the percent for “Christian” would be at least 50% since that would include the US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia, NZ. South and Central America might not be too enticing, but much of it is pretty good. Eastern Europe not so great. Africa might be problematic. > > I agree. Islam needs to go through some kind of reformation, and that is probably tied to the geopolitical situation which ain’t too good. I’m pretty sure I’d rather live anywhere in South America, Central America, or the Christian portions of the former Soviet Union than in any Muslim country. Probably with the exception of Kazakhstan and Bosnia. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/317 "2015-01-09T16:14:10Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > So, I guess you’re referring to your copy of _“[All Religions Are the Same](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate#Religious_basis)”_, then. :dubious: Bro, do you even logic? Here’s the premise: Islam, as practiced in Saudi Arabia (and many other countries), has significantly contributed to Saudi Arabia being a shitty place for human rights in 2014. That premise is absolutely true. We can debate why Islam is practiced that way in Saudi Arabia (or, theoretically we could, if you knew anything about the history), but the basic premise is true. What does not follow is that all Muslims believe women are bad. Or that Christianity has done more good in the world than Islam. Or that Saudi Arabia or any other country would be better on human rights if Islam had never existed. Or that there would be less terrorism in the world if Islam had never existed. All of that is, at most, dubious, if not transparently false. It certainly does not follow from the premise. This shit isn’t that complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Oukile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@Oukile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oukile)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/318 "2015-01-09T16:17:43Z")
Police attacked a few minutes ago, on both sites. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/319 "2015-01-09T16:24:38Z")
Reports that the two brothers are dead, their hostage was rescued, some confusion at the supermarket. ---
**Author:** ![scrotchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@scrotchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scrotchy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213/320 "2015-01-09T16:25:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Is it a universal quality of poor countries to subjugate women, stone them to death for being raped, throw acid in their face for learning to read or daring to let the the sun fall on their fucking nose, persecute people from other religions, often in a violent way, and a whole myriad of other things that are quite common amongst the Muslim world? Do you think that if we ran a comparison of the entire world, and matched countries up based on poverty, income inequality, and warfare, that we wouldn’t find anywhere that was less shitty? C’mon SB. It’s just a coincidence that Islam is the random religion intertwined into all of the modern terrorism and poverty infested backwards ass regions and countries. And Islam is just ‘misunderstood’ when women are beaten and stoned and treated like second class citizens. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-terrorists-attack-french-publisher-11-dead/709213.md?page=17)