Breaking news: terrorists attack French publisher, 11 dead.

[SenorBeef]

@iiandyiiii

A distinction without a difference. “Judaism is shitty everywhere” is bigoted, as is “Jews are shitty everywhere”, or something similar. Same for Christianity and Christians, same for Islam and Muslims.

I see what you’re getting at, but I can’t agree.

The problem here is that some xenophobic and bigoted people are hateful towards other groups. Often they will conflate and misidentify groups based on what they perceive to be shared traits.

For example, if some redneck in the US said “I hate Muslims”, you can be almost sure he’s talking about hating Arabs. He probably has no idea that Indonesia is actually the most populous Muslim country in the world, and that Arabs are a minority of Muslims. “Muslims” in this case might as well be replaced with “towel heads” with no loss in meaning.

And that’s what people rally against when they come in talking about how criticism of Islam is racist. They’re well-meaning, but stupid. They’re fighting against a real xenophobic hatred, but they’ve gone so overboard in making anything that could possibly be in any way interpreted as racist as a thought crime, and they simply try to shout down anyone who sounds even remotely like the bigots.

Islam is an ideology. It’s a set of beliefs codified in holy documents. It has a structure to it with a hierarchy of religious experts who are generally accepted to be an authority on the subject. One can analyze that ideology for its merits, and conclude that it’s poor compared to similar ideologies. There is nothing xenophobic in that statement, and judging ideologies is absolutely fair game.

You can then make judgments on individuals, cultures, and countries that try to live by this ideology. That’s simply logical. If you feel that an ideology is flawed or negative for those following it, or the people that are affected by its hegemony, it’s perfectly natural to have a negative judgement towards those who practice it.

But if you’re basically a volunteer racism cop who’s always on the beat looking for thought crimes to shout down, and you lack an ability to actually fucking analyze what it is you’re reading, “Islam is a poor belief system with a lot of negative consequences for those who practice it” sounds to you like “I HATE DEM TOWELHEADS”.

So I think you’re all well meaning, in that your reactions are a consequence of over-zealously trying to stamp out racism, but your positions lack nuance, aren’t useful, and aren’t able to adapt to actual real world issues. You, in effect, become an apologist for any of the flaws of any belief system, culture, or doctrine that you can interpret as also being the target of bigots. You deliberately stifle any real conversation we could have on the matter of Islam.

[Locrian]

@Doctor_Why_Bother

No it isn’t. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all bronze-aged perversions of reason and the world would be a better place if none of them existed. That is true everywhere.

There are plenty of nice Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Kudos to them for having the sense to follow their shitty, shitty religions selectively, and skip over the truly repugnant bits. Their selective adherence to scripture doesn’t make their religions themselves any less shitty.

Muslims/Jews/Christians are shitty everywhere = bigotry.

Islam/Christianity/Judaism is shitty everywhere = stone cold fucking truth.

And for the record, lest I be accused of false equivalence, Islam is by far the shittiest of these three shitty religions.

FULLY agreed! To those apologists who think that this event it isn’t a religious one, you’re stupid. Period.

The role of any religion is to deny progress, deny free thought, and to be used as justification for violent acts (Crusades, anyone?). It serves no other purpose to society but to limit society’s growth. That’s what we’re seeing here.

These Islam shitheads are beyond any help. No words, no reason, no thought interests them. You’re dead on sight. And they do this because of their backward shit Sharia. They deny progress and refuse to let it happen. And do not try to convince me that there are calm, moderate Islamists that are against this that make their religion or any religion okay. If your life and your decisions are based around silly superstitions like religion, why should you be trusted at all? I don’t think you should be allowed to run for office or vote when you need to pray 14 times a day, cover your body from head to toe, or be blessed by a priest for witch protection before you travel (Palin).

As others have pointed out, why does a cartoon send someone to into apeshit mode? And they’ve got thousands of supporters on line for this? Answer=Religion. If I went to apeshit mode whenever I see Yosemite Sam, would I get any supporters for that? Nope. Why? 'Cause there’s no religion that worships Yosemite Sam (AFAIK) that demands 5,000 year-old rules and laws around this blue ball.

[Terr]

@Locrian

As others have pointed out, why does a cartoon send someone to into apeshit mode? And they’ve got thousands of supporters on line for this? Answer=Religion. If I went to apeshit mode whenever I see Yosemite Sam, would I get any supporters for that? Nope. Why? 'Cause there’s no religion that worships Yosemite Sam (AFAIK) that demands 5,000 year-old rules and laws around this blue ball.

Islam is about 1400 years old.

[Kobal2]

@SenorBeef

You can’t be racist against a religion you fucking morons. What race is Islam? Are all people of that race Islamic? Is it a racial trait, encoded in your genetics somewhere? [snip]

And yet it is, sort of. Because here in France at least, Islam is, by and large, a religion of brown and black people ; and even moreso the religion of them people from that part of North Africa wot we used to lord over, and what good times we had down there with testicles and car batteries and that.
It’s also, necessarily and as a result from this, mostly the religion of poor people from the cités, which is a nice way of saying ghetto.

So no, islamophobia is not 100% indistinguishable and divorced from racial tensions. Ain’t so easy.

[QUOTE=Locrian]
FULLY agreed! To those apologists who think that this event it isn’t a religious one, you’re stupid. Period.
[/QUOTE]

Aye, it probably is at that (although, again, they haven’t caught the guys yet and nobody has issued any statements - AFAIK the only reason people jump to the “It’s muslim terrists !” conclusion is that a) Charlie has been targetted by some of those before and b) the assailants are of North African descent. Oh, and c) all Muslims are terrists or somesuch).

But be that as it may, if you think it’s *solely *a religious event, you’re stupid. Period.
And misinformed to boot - you seem to believe or assume these guncunts were motivated by a cartoon *Charlie *published. Which one, pray tell ?

[Locrian]

@Terr

Islam is about 1400 years old.

Their rules and laws aren’t.

[Terr]

@Kobal2

Aye, it probably is at that (although, again, they haven’t caught the guys yet and nobody has issued any statements - AFAIK the only reason people jump to the “It’s muslim terrists !” conclusion is that a) Charlie has been targetted by some of those before and b) the assailants are of North African descent. Oh, and c) all Muslims are terrists or somesuch).

I am sure the screams of “Allahu Akhbar” recorded on the videos had nothing to do with it.

[Richard_Parker]

SenorBeef:

Of course religious beliefs can be criticized. Religious beliefs should be criticized. And just because a belief is a religious belief should not make it automatically good or equal to any other religious belief. The golden rule is much better than ISIS’s view of jihad.

Where you go wrong is believing that there is some abstract ideology called “Islam” that can be detailed as to its views on women, any more than there is some abstract ideology “Christianity” that can be detailed as to its views on women. There are some essential beliefs for Muslims, like believing that there is only one god and that Muhamad was his messenger, giving money to the poor, and celebrating Ramadan. Beyond the essentials, there is much divergence. While many Muslims have regressive beliefs about all manner of things, millions of Muslims have a view of Islam that is consistent with the western, modern values that you and I both cherish and defend.

When you criticize Islam in a way that casts Islam as the beliefs held by ISIS and these asshole terrorists in Paris, you’re just giving them what they want. It’s like saying the only real Republicans are Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman. And you’re also unfairly tarring Muslims who don’t believe those things, but who have every bit as strong a claim to the “real” Islam. The far fairer and more effective thing to do is talk about the actual beliefs of actual people. Talk about things the majority of the Saudi public believes. Or talk about the way most Malaysian Muslims deal with feminism. When you start talking about all Muslims this and Islam that, and you’re not talking about fundamental religious doctrines, then you’re almost inevitably mischaracterizing the beliefs of millions of people.

I don’t really know what would motivate you to want to rank and assess Islam as a monolithic global phenomenon as against Christianity as a monolithic global phenomenon. Even if you had some sincere motivation for doing so, there’s no way such an endeavor could ever be done objectively even if we had an objective set of metrics, because it is impossible to separate the influence of religion from other factors. If I started spouting off about how the difference between Massachusetts and Mississippi was down to liberalism and conservatism, you’d rightly label me on overly partisan loon. The same is true of 99% of the people who talk about Europe and the Middle East as if they were identical petri dishes in which Islam and Christianity experiments were run.

In my city, Islam motivates people to volunteer in soup kitchens, and set up tutoring programs in underserved neighborhoods, and teach young women public speaking skills. I’ve seen more than a few khutbas at mosques near me. As an ACLU-loving, born-and-bred atheist, I rarely find their content objectionable–and when I do, my sentiment is usually shared by part of the congregation. In what sense is the Islam in my community shitty, or shittier than the Christianity or Judaism? Why should I believe it would be worse if my entire city were Muslims?

[Locrian]

From Richard Parker “Why should I believe it would be worse if my entire city were Muslims?”

Bolding mine.

Not much, since you’re a man. You DO have a prayer mat, don’t you? Better get one. Oh, and no more atheist stuff. Your new middle name is Muhammed. And heterosexual sex with a 13-year-old girl is nothing to worry about.

[Charlie_Wayne]

@Doctor_Why_Bother

Why are you bringing Muslims into this? SenorBeef was criticising Islam.

Can you explain the difference?

I always thought that a practitioner of Islam was called a Muslim. Is that not correct?

[John_Mace]

@Richard_Parker

If I started spouting off about how the difference between Massachusetts and Mississippi was down to liberalism and conservatism, you’d rightly label me on overly partisan loon.

Not sure about SB, but I suspect a good many posters here would not label you thusly.

[John_Mace]

@Richard_Parker

In my city, Islam motivates people to volunteer in soup kitchens, and set up tutoring programs in underserved neighborhoods, and teach young women public speaking skills. I’ve seen more than a few khutbas at mosques near me. As an ACLU-loving, born-and-bred atheist, I rarely find their content objectionable–and when I do, my sentiment is usually shared by part of the congregation. In what sense is the Islam in my community shitty, or shittier than the Christianity or Judaism? Why should I believe it would be worse if my entire city were Muslims?

Are that any muslim-majority cities in the world that can truly be said to foster and practice Liberal Democracy? Of the muslims in your community, what percentage favor SSM?

I’d like to see it work in practice rather than being the first experiment. That is not to say you couldn’t easily bring together 50,000 Muslims who would be all hung-ho for Western Liberal Democracy, but you don’t get to pick and choose who lives in your city, and a muslim-majority city in the US would attract more bad guys than good, IMHO.

[LavenderBlue]

Sarah Palin represents the majority of Republican beliefs. She was the nominee for veep for cripes sakes and the vast majority of Reps voted for her.

Around here I see Muslims all the time and I can’t say I’m particularly delighted to see (or attempt to see) them. The man in shorts and his idiot wife in head to toe clothing even when it’s very hot outside. Yuck. When I lived in Staten Island there was a Muslim family down the block. She would walk around in that ridiculous get up so you can barely see her eyes and not talk to anyone on the block. She had at least seven kids. The boys would walk around in shorts and the poor little girls in head to toe clothing. She wouldn’t talk to her next door neighbor. He was gay. So gay he would set off your grandmother’s gaydar gay. She still wouldn’t speak to him. Again yuck. Her youngest was a little girl of about three and she was still stuck in black clothing and that fucking headscarf. I wanted to grab the poor kid from her mommy and tell her she was free. My own daughters walk around nearly naked when it’s hot outside and I would smack a man who suggested I drop them into nun’s garb. As this point don’t find much redeeming in Islam anymore than I find much redeeming in Sarah Palin’s backwards and unappealing beliefs. I have no particular desire to start a war with Muslims but while Jesus seems like a nice guy, I can’t say the same about Muhammed. I certainly wouldn’t live in Iran or Saudi Arabia as a woman or Sarah Palin’s America for that matter unless I had no other choice.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@John_Mace

Are that any muslim-majority cities in the world that can truly be said to foster and practice Liberal Democracy? Of the muslims in your community, what percentage favor SSM?

I’d like to see it work in practice rather than being the first experiment. That is not to say you couldn’t easily bring together 50,000 Muslims who would be all hung-ho for Western Liberal Democracy, but you don’t get to pick and choose who lives in your city, and a muslim-majority city in the US would attract more bad guys than good, IMHO.

Does Dearborn, Michigan count? If it’s not predominantly Muslim, there are parts of it that are.

[Malthus]

@Doctor_Why_Bother

No it isn’t. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all bronze-aged perversions of reason and the world would be a better place if none of them existed. That is true everywhere.

For some reason, this annoys me more than it should.

My inner archaeologist is gibbering that none of these religions were formed in the “bronze age”. They are all considerably younger than that.

Judaism comes closest, depending on when you think the religion was formed. Even there, though, oldest parts of the OT date to periods that are firmly “iron age”.

[Kobal2]

@LavenderBlue

Around here I see Muslims all the time and I can’t say I’m particularly delighted to see (or attempt to see) them.

Around here I see Muslims all the time and I can’t say I give a flying fuck what they believe in, so long as they don’t do it in the street and frighten the horses.

[Stringbean]

As a true American, I will defend to the death the right for moronic liberals to defend to the death moronic religions that preach hatred and intolerance.

[bobot]

Organized religion is a pain in the ass. It is all exagerated legend, and sensetive hurt feelings. It is not for me. As much as the Legend Of Jesus Of Nazareth The Christ And Only True Savior And Only Way Into Heaven has been overblown and exaggerated, he aint got nuthin’ on Mohommed!
That people still take organized religion so god damned seriously just boggles my little mind.

[Richard_Parker]

@John_Mace

Are that any muslim-majority cities in the world that can truly be said to foster and practice Liberal Democracy?

Define Liberal Democracy. Did Mississippi practice it in 1960? 1860? Does France practice it today? Ukraine?

I think if you come up with a definition that isn’t too exclusionary or arbitrary, we would find Muslim-majority areas that fit it.

Is Malaysia a Liberal Democracy? Kosovo? Bangladesh?

[iiandyiiii]

@Locrian

Bolding mine.

Not much, since you’re a man. You DO have a prayer mat, don’t you? Better get one. Oh, and no more atheist stuff. Your new middle name is Muhammed. And heterosexual sex with a 13-year-old girl is nothing to worry about.

If you’re just talking about the fanatical sects that behave this way, as opposed to the vast majority of muslims in places like Dearborn, Jakarta, Malaysia, Istanbul, etc. who don’t, then I’d agree.

The fanatical sects suck and are shitty. In fact, fanatical sects of every religion suck and are shitty.

[Locrian]

@iiandyiiii

If you’re just talking about the fanatical sects that behave this way, as opposed to the vast majority of muslims in places like Dearborn, Jakarta, Malaysia, Istanbul, etc. who don’t, then I’d agree.

Not sure what you mean by fanatical. I’m sure Dearborn, Michigan has less jihad threats, but I don’t see many Islam leaders condemning the violence of IS. All I’ve seen is two leaders doing the condemning - one former Malaysian leader and the former prime minister of Indonesia. Malaysia and Istanbul has remained mute on the violence of IS. Pope Crackhead Francis couldn’t convince them on his recent trip. And the honor killings we saw a lot of last year don’t happen in a mountainous region with a population of 20 people. United Nations and Human Rights Watch report one honor killing PER WEEK in Istanbul, over 1,000 in five years. In 2006, approximately 133 women were executed in Basra. 76 for refusing Islamic teachings and 47 honor kills. Even six women killed via honor in Berlin.

The fanatical sects suck and are shitty. In fact, fanatical sects of every religion suck and are shitty.

Yes, yes, and yes. Let’s remember that fanatical sects come from (drumroll) the regular/normal sects. The sects don’t originate a new religion. It’s a spin-off from the original. Not as much fun as Soap/Benson or Happy Days/Laverne & Shirley.