Well, see, the hard part about standing up to folks like the terrorists in question is that, if you’re not anonymous, they can simply kill you – but if you hide behind a mask, they can’t, y’know, just google Charlie Hebdo and stop you after you lay into them, so you can lay into them again and again; you say “cowards”, I say “pragmatists”.
I’d agree . . . but only for certain definitions of Biblical law and liberal democracy. Would you say that certain definitions of sharia law aren’t in conflict with certain definitions of liberal democracy?
CMC fnord!
The ancient Athenians were Christians?
Don’t be silly, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln invented democracy and that’s why God carved their faces on Mt. Rushmore during The Flood!
CMC fnord!
Well, a rather foxy looking chick is apparently single now:
Too soon?
Nah. Is this an RPG launcher in my pocket or am I just pleased to see her?
Yes, let’s continue to dismiss Islam-fueled atrocities as the domain of deficient socio-economic regions in the aftermath of an Islam-fueled atrocity in one of the richest, highly-civilized countries on the planet.
Keep the blistering relativism comin’, Dopers. The hole only grows deeper.
I have been reading and listening to various commentators these past 48 hours say that the main worry is a backlash from French society and French authorities towards Muslims. The fear that the Right will exploit this event. This may be the case. But I would like to suggest just as big a concern, a concern which is summed up in the type of response we have seen on here. That if elites and liberals continue to downplay such events, continue to put their heads in the sand then not only will a backlash occur against Muslims but also against French elites. Everything else being equal the Font National will see it’s poll numbers increase by 1-2% in the weeks or months ahead. If the French public feel their elites not doing enough then this small increase in support for FN will become a substantial increase.
Athenian democracy was many things, but liberal ? Not so much.
What exactly is the proper response from liberals that isn’t downplaying these events and putting their heads in the sand?
The window on the right wing/conservatives that I have seems to think the proper response is as close to concentration camps and genocide as the rules there allow.
CMC fnord!
Erm I don’t pretend to know what the proper response is(this is a problem the greatest minds of the Western world have yet to solve). All I know is that an adequate response is necessary. If the French State does not respond adequately, or viewed adequately by large sections of French society then just watch those poll numbers for FN skyrocket.
I think that if you’d listened closely, you could have heard a whooshing sound as you wrote that.
In most cases people are quick to point out it’s only a free speech issue when the government silences you. Otherwise you can go ahead and make your speech, but you’re not free from the consequences of that speech, as long as it’s from private groups – corporations, boycotters, internet sites, or in this case terrorist militias gunning you down. That’s the logic that usually carries the day. So in this case the police, being the government forces, are the ones violating the free speech of the terrorists.
I believe the response the greatest minds of the Western world have come up with is;
Kill the fuck out of the bad guys.
Preferably in ways that don’t put our guys at more risk than large sections of society will tolerate.
and
Hearts and minds.
Don’t allow the bad guys to think they’re more important than they are.
Don’t allow the bad guys to turn this into an actual clash of cultures, so avoid doing or saying things that might piss off the currently not bad guy Muslims if we can. Ya’ know don’t turn this into the thing that bin Laden et al. really would like to turn this all into.
Ya’ know, a more than adequate response . . . to reasonable folks.
If you don’t have a better idea than that, just maybe you could not say stupid shit like,
until you do? 'Cause I’m reasonably certain that the overwhelming majority this board approves of the above strategy, even if reluctantly, doesn’t think that we’re “downplaying the events” any more than they should be and it’s about as far from a “putting their heads in the sand” response as is currently possible.
You write “Born to Kill” on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What’s that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?!
No, sir.
How about getting with the program?
Yes, sir.
Why don’t you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
Yes, sir! :smack: <Closest thing we’ve got to a saluting smiley.
CMC fnord!
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Read the Quran (I get the feeling that quite a few liberals in this thread are currently not clearing this hurdle).
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Realise that it’s a nasty, divisive, and profoundly mediocre book that is easily as bad as the Bible, and is arguably considerably worse.
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Critique the unscientific and immoral parts of the Quran with the same rigour and unsympathetic detachment with which they are currently all too happy to critique the unscientific and immoral parts of the Bible. Try to make atheists, or at least moderates, out of as many Muslims as they possibly can. We don’t win this fight with bombs. We win it by using the pressure of conversation to smother bad ideas.
More blasphemy helps. If you want a society to become less fundamentalist, one step towards doing that is for them to hear their religion ridiculed. We wouldn’t be the society we are today if we’d held religion sacred and it’s time for our leaders to stop treating Islam as somehow more sacred than other religions. if we treat Islam special, it’s followers will believe it actually is special. Look, even the heathens treat us with respect!
Yes, most on this board probably do believe in such a response, or they believe in such a response in theory, but less so in practice. A few of your sugestions are far more easily said than done. Plus, such a response will likely be approved by people on this board/liberal elites for a very brief period. Give it a couple of years of no attacks and just watch the elites reduce their “adequate response”.
Also, add a few percieved miscarriages of justice with human rights lawyers kicking up a fuss and you can again take it to the bank that the response from elites and liberals will begin to crack.
Avoid saying or doing things that will piss off the currently not bad guy? So, you are against showing images of Muhammed. Well its good to see us off to such a firm and determined fight against terrorism.
Im sympathetic towards this. Yet such ridicule fails the advice of crowmanyclouds at the first hurdle. Such ridicule immediately pisses off x number of Muslims whilst hopefully at the same time having a greater benefit in the long term. Will the short term pain be worth it? Hopefully, but it may just contribute to a clusterfuck of violence for an awful long time.
Among the many bone stupid things about the conservative suggestions here is the fact that our allies in the fight against Islamic extremism are other Muslims.
But you when take the Fox News, clash of civilizations view, then you shoot yourself in the dick–a time-honored GOP national security strategy.
nm
There are no jihadists in foxholes.