Breaking news: terrorists attack French publisher, 11 dead.

No. The idea that homosexuality is “perverted” is, in itself, a perversion of reason, and one that religions are largely responsible for perpetuating. The world wouldn’t be better if it didn’t exist, no more than it would be somehow “better” if people with green eyes didn’t exist. The world would, however, be a lot better if people, particularly religious people, stopped making such a big stink about it. The idea that homosexuality is “perverted” is one of the nastier holdovers from our primitive, God-boggled past.

Not necessarily. I condemn Islam as it has more than its fair share of bad ideas, and relatively few corresponding good ideas to counterbalance the bad. Those Muslims who adhere to the bad ideas (martyrdom, jihad, incessantly condemning unbelievers, etc…), I wholeheartedly condemn. Fuck 'em. Those Muslims who don’t, and who ignore the bad shit and just try to get along? Those guys I’m OK with, although frankly I would prefer it if they were atheists.

The important thing to take away from this, is that when Muslims commit atrocities like the one visited upon the Charlie Hebdo offices, their bad behaviour is motivated by their bad beliefs, based on bad ideas. These bad ideas come from scripture. If you sit down and read the Quran, you’ll notice that there is ample textual substantiation for these bad ideas. That’s why I condemn Islam.

The reason this doesn’t translate to condemning all Muslims is that there are lots of Muslims who are happy to ignore some or all of the bad stuff.

Ergo, condemning Islam does not equate to condemning all Muslims.

Did you mean to say atheists, there? Anyway, atheism isn’t a belief system. To quote Sam Harris, an atheist is merely a person who has heard the claims of organised religion, read the books, and found the claims to be unfounded. Atheism doesn’t have any ideas, good or bad. It’s an absence of ideas…

If Atheism had scriptures, if it had a book of teachings and some of them were good and some of them were bad, and some atheists did bad things because of these bad teachings, then you could fairly condemn atheism while not condemning all atheists. However, since atheism has no such scriptures the comparison fails.

I agree. It does teach some good things, but the good doesn’t negate the bad.

But that’s the point. If you read the Quran you’ll see that, scripturally, the extreme version of Islam isn’t that extreme. It’s quite easy to draw a line between the scores and scores of verses cursing, scourging, mocking and condemning unbelievers with the violent actions of some Muslims. As Dawkins has observed, not all religions are the same. There are some religions which simply do not allow for such violence.

Assuming that _____ is standing in for “killing unbelievers who attack Islam”, as Charlie Hebdo’s writers arguably did, then by the light of Islam it isn’t really a perversion of reason. It’s actually quite easy to justify, given what Islamic scripture actually says. In all seriousness, have you read the Quran? If not, I recommend you do. You might find it quite eye-opening.

The problem isn’t Islam per se. Islam just happens to be the religion of poor, angry disenfranchised people. If I could snap my fingers and magically eliminate Islam tomorrow, the day after we’d have a billion people switching to some Christian revolution theology or something. If I snapped my fingers and eliminated all religions, the day after that a billion angry disenfranchised people would switch to a new Klingon religion and keep right on doing what they’re doing now. From what I’ve read, a lot of these second generation immigrant terrorists aren’t really all that devout until they get radicalized and decide it would be fun to kill people, and then they suddenly get devout.

Priceless, when you see the post that comes right after yours. You’re like a precog :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Fuzzy_Wuzzy]
The number of African Americans killed by cops in this time period pales into insignificance in relation to all gun deaths
[/QUOTE]

You know, I don’t even think it would, at that, but do feel free to pull up the numbers and show us.

The car crash thing is a strawman, naturally (accidents =/= deliberate actions, preventable criminal behaviour =/= necessary risk of an accepted economic reality and that). But you and **carnivorous **knew that - or he’s unfit to breathe.

Unless of course you figure dead spouses is just an accepted risk of marriage, and dead innocent black people a regrettable albeit inevitable consequence of policing ? That would be brave. And novel.

I agree with this to an extent, but only because lots of religions have bad ideas in their scripture. But some religions are much better than others, at least when it comes to violence.

Imagine what would happen if you actually had the power to eliminate religion after religion until the only one left was, say, Jainism? The doctrine of Jainism is one of utter, utter non-violence. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions. A really observant Jain will actually filter every sip of water that he drinks through a piece of cloth just to make sure he doesn’t accidentally swallow a bug. That’s how pacifist they are. The more deranged and fundamentalist you become as a Jain, the less likely you are to become a terrorist. Indeed, the very construction ‘Jain terrorist’ is nonsensical. It’s like saying ‘giant midget’, or something. You can be one or the other, but you can’t be both, and anyone who says that they are is simply doing Jainism wrong and that’s all there is to it.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the words on the page. If the books contain enough bad ideas, and those bad ideas are not adequately constrained by good ideas, then people will inevitably start to behave badly. Get rid of the ideas themselves, and you will likely solve much of the problem.

The problem is not Islam, or Christianity, or Liberals, or any of that. the problem is psychopaths and sociopaths and fanatics.

Are the fanatics and psychos offended? GOOD!. As religion itself goes, ANY religion, if their religion or their belief in it is so weak, so pathetic, so fvcked up, that it can not survive scrutiny or humor or even ridicule, that’s THEIR problem.

This isn’t a religion problem, it’s a murder problem. They should never be treated as 'angry religious" anything. they should be treated like terrorist criminals and rabid dogs. Regardless of what fanatical shit they are pushing. No one should tippy toe around for fear of offending them, the very existence of people offends them one way or another. they are animals.

Hell, they kill as many Muslims, as anyone else they kill (probably more).

As for those people saying the victims somehow brought it on themselves, and even worse, those who excuse it because they offended and insulted “devout” people, those guys can go to hell. I lump them WITH the terrorists and murderers.

Is it simply coincidence that all of the psychopaths that are willing to murder over a cartoon that pokes fun at their religion Islamic?

Is it possible that the fact that taking great offense at images of Mohammed is a core tenet of Islam, and taking grave offense of making fun of Jesus or Buddha is not similarly part of the Christian or Buddhist doctrines? No? Not possible? Just random coincidence that has nothing to even do with religion?

This is the Straight Dope. Criticism of Islam is precluded as prescribed by page 32 of Rules For The Disingenuous Politically Correct.

According to Chart B, when confronted by the confluence of violence committed directly in the name of Islam, poster must either:

A. Deflect to historical violence committed by other religions.

B. Refer to the happenstance that not every Muslim commits violence in the name of their religion.

Nice way of kinda missing my point; that the number of deaths as a result of one activity in comparison to another activity bears little relation to the seriousness of the respective problems. For instance the number of deaths in the Western world due to Islamic terrorism does appear relatively small(partly because Western societies plunging vast resources and manpower into preventing such terrorism and surrendering many of our civil liberties in the process). But the number of these deaths have risen since the year 2000. The big unknown for any of us is will these number of deaths/attacks continue to rise?

I realise im stacking the cards in my favour by picking the year 2000 as a cut off point in terms of rising Islamist terrorist attacks and deaths. However, I believe my point still stands. That we do not know just how big a threat future Islamic terrorism will be. However, im glad to see your mind is made up on this point, that such terrorism is not a problem at the moment, and it will continue to not be a problem.

You were right to pull me upon my stats for deaths of African Americans shot dead by police. I should have said the number of “controversial” deaths. Not all African American deaths by cop are created equal. Many are completely justified.

Taking offense is not the problem. Plenty of French Muslims and imams (like many non-Muslims) have said that they were offended or dismayed by Charlie Hebdo, but are much more appalled and outraged by terrorist violence, the attack on French society, and the co-opting of the banner of their faith.

Not really, though. I mean, yes, obviously 9/11 represents a big lump (cheater :p). But also pretty exceptional, I think you’ll agree ? Substract it from the tally, and the death toll post-9/11 is pretty comparable to that before - remember Lockerbie ? The Paris subway bombing campaign of 95, the Madrid bombing of 85 ?
Each of these incidents was tragic, shocking, unforgivable naturally. But equally, they were no grounds to start making calculations on how to efficiently enact a Final Solution of the Muslim Problem, and neither are the despicable actions of the Charlie-hating bastards today.

There’s also the fact that, even in Europe where I’m told the Mussulmen hordes are violently taking over (can’t say I’ve noticed, but then I don’t get out much), Muslim/Islamist terrorism is barely a blip even on the strictly terrorism radar.

[QUOTE=Wikipedia]
In 2009, a Europol report also showed that more than 99% of terrorist attacks in Europe over the last three years were, in fact, carried out by non-Muslims.[137][138][139] In terms of arrests, out of a total of 1,009 arrested terror suspects in 2008, 187 of them were arrested in relation to Islamist terrorism.[
[/QUOTE]

I stand by my assessment of bogeyman-ism.

I’ll further note that the causes that seem to lead these guys into the arms of Islamic merchants of martyrdom are basically the same as those that foster neo-nazism, soccer hooliganism, Christian identity movements etc. ; and thus that the solution is not to ostracise and disenfranchise them even more than they already feel.

cite :

One of the cops they murdered was a Muslim.

Talking about how other religions were violent in the past is lame I agree, but there are something like 1.6 billion Muslims on Earth, and if a significant portion of them were terrorists we’d have noticed by now. The radicalized terrorists really are a very small minority.

Thanks, this is the most irrelevant post in the thread. So what? What point does this disprove? The statement of “all muslims are terrorists, none are good people” that no one came within the the same universe as saying?

Your premise is false. “Taking great offense at images of Mohammed” is not a “core tenet of Islam.”

See, e.g., Wikipedia.

A couplemorecites on the subject, should you want them.

Dude, seriously. How can you even walk when you’re that butthurt?

"Is it simply coincidence that all of the psychopaths that are willing to murder over a cartoon that pokes fun at their religion Islamic?

Is it possible that the fact that taking great offense at images of Mohammed is a core tenet of Islam…"

I think it IS relevant. You SEEMED to be saying they are all no good, as in we should exterminate them MAYBE?
Added on edit: Before you get the wrong idea, I am all for killing the RIGHT ones.

I do prefer a little foreplay. You’re boring and easy.

True.

Funny, I don’t recall making any suggestions. I think I accurately described the current “proper response”, ya know, that thing that you don’t pretend to know what actually should be.

Thanks though, I guess, didn’t know that I was included on the list of the greatest minds of the Western world!

Avoid saying or doing things that will piss off the currently not bad guy, ya’ know like torture, and Abu Ghraib, and bombing them by “accident”, and Mark Furman not saying on Hannity last night (et al.) “We are at war with Islam”. (Dropping the “radical” without being corrected or anyone seeming to even notice. Their bad guys and some of our guys both want this to be religious war . . . and I’d almost be willing to bet they’re in about the same number.)

Funny, I don’t remember typing that that was my position on showing images of Muhammad, I sure as fuck know that I’ve never thought it.

Maybe you could, ya’ know, reread my posts in this thread and get a clue about my opinion of offending the sensibilities of the devout? Here’s some help,

(Actually you still won’t have a clue, 'cause I don’t think it’s possible to write about anything quite that nuanced in a form simple enough for you to comprehend.)

As opposed to following your firm and determined strategy of “Erm”?

Yeah, killing the bad guys and not creating more bad guys, how could I confuse that with a firm and determined fight against terrorism.

Why am I certain that any response the “elites and liberals” come up with just isn’t going to be enough in your tiny mind? Maybe it’s your use of “elites and liberals”?

CMC fnord!

What forms of Atheism other than “I do not believe in (G)god(s)” are there? Thrill me with your acumen!