# BREAKING NEWS: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606 "2011-06-23T20:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/1 "2011-06-23T20:07:17Z")
[http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism](http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism) > [@](#): > > The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands. > A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: " **The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people.**" Of the four most progressive countries in Europe (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland) TWO have now officially abandoned “American” multiculturalism. Are you surprised that the Dutch and Danes are no longer in favor of the dream society of American liberals? No more affirmative actions for colored people. No more special subsidies for Muslim immigrants. Everybody will have the same rights and obligations. Doesn’t it sound a bit fascist? Can we allow the majority to determine the direction of our societies? Isn’t that just pure populism? > [@](#): > > But polls show that a majority of Dutch voters support the government’s skepticism about multiculturalism. According to a Maurice de Hond poll published by the center-right newspaper Trouw on June 19, **74 percent of Dutch voters say immigrants should conform to Dutch values.** Moreover, 83 percent of those polled support a ban on burqas in public spaces. This news is not available in the Swedish media. Wonder why…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/2 "2011-06-23T20:16:20Z")
Who said immigrants shouldn’t conform to the values of their host nation? This strawman is giving the one at Burning Man a run for it’s money. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/3 "2011-06-23T20:17:55Z")
American multiculturalism?? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/4 "2011-06-23T20:19:32Z")
I must have missed a memo somewhere along the way. How is ‘multiculturalism’ a product of American liberals? And how is multiculturalism a means of having ‘two separate cultures’ instead of one culture that respects all within a larger framework. Hell, we tried that ‘separate’ thing here in the US in the south a while back. It didn’t hold up to prevailing constitutional beliefs and was struck down. In short, your argument, sir or madam, is a farce. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/5 "2011-06-23T20:40:30Z")
Multiculturalism very much encourages separation of cultures within a host country. As a Canadian, I grew up having it beaten into my head that Canada was a ‘cultural mosaic’, where immigrants were encouraged to maintain their own cultures and values, whereas the inferior Americans were a ‘melting pot’ where people who immigrated were expected to put American values and cultural norms ahead of those of their old country. Thus in Canada you can be charged with a ‘hate crime’ for criticizing another culture, and there is a movement to allow parallel sharia law courts, and RCMP officers from the Sikh community can wear turbans instead of traditional RCMP headgear. In school here, great emphasis is placed on ‘diversity’ and on respecting other cultures equally and tolerating the existence of those cultures within the country. This works okay in Canada, because Canada is geographically isolated from most countries immigrants come from, and most immigrants here have a certain amount of education and the wherewithal to get here in the first place. We tend to get the best people from other countries. It isn’t working so well in Europe, where many of those countries are picking up the unemployed and uneducated people from other countries, then allowing them to exist within their borders as cultural outsiders so they remain unemployable and where they then become militant and demand that their own cultural norms be accommodated, even if they conflict with the cultural norms of the host country. This is creating a lot of tension - especially in the Netherlands where their ‘live and let live’ attitude has resulted in a large population of immigrants who are quite intolerant and opposed to the very values that allowed them to emigrate there in the first place. I always thought multiculturalism was nuts when carried out to the extreme of setting up exemptions to a country’s laws or tolerating cultural expression that conflicts with the norms of the country. If my country values the rights of women, then I don’t give a damn if some immigrants believe women should be subjugated. If you come to my country, you accept my rules. If you don’t like it, go home. I have no problem with you maintaining your own culture so long as it doesn’t conflict with the values of my country, but I expect you to be a Canadian first and respect Canadian law and Canadian cultural institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/6 "2011-06-23T20:40:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The Institute states that in the Qur’an, the Islamic prophet Muhammad “curses the Jews and turns them into pigs and monkeys.” It also accuses the Qur’an of teaching Muslims to not befriend Jews or Christians.[7] > > It was described by US foreign policy scholars John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt as “closely associated with neoconservatives”.[8] The Hudson Institute has in turn published articles critical of Mearsheimer[9] and Walt. > > SOURCE: [Hudson Institute - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Institute#Policy_positions) Got any other cites? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/7 "2011-06-23T20:56:13Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > American multiculturalism?? The OP [thinks](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=611132) that American liberals somehow forced “cultural Marxism” on Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/8 "2011-06-23T21:08:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > there is a movement to allow parallel sharia law courts, Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/9 "2011-06-23T21:14:52Z")
[Sharia Law in Canada, Almost](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/feb/08/sharialawincanadaalmost) BBC: [Will Sharia Come to Canada?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3599264.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/10 "2011-06-23T21:18:34Z")
Seriously, **Sam** , the RCMP/Sikh issue? Really? That’s one of your big “Fuck you Canadian Traditions!!”? What did you do when the OPP switched to stetsons? I think the OP would be better served if he called what has happened in some European countries what it really is - ghettoization. The Sharia issue popped up a few years back in Ontario when faith based arbitration was introduced. [Ontario Attorney General](http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/arbitration/faith-based.asp) > [@](#): > > Nothing in Ontario law prevents people from turning to a religious official or someone knowledgeable in the principles of their religion to help them resolve their family dispute. > > However, if that person made a decision based on religious principles, the decision would not be a valid family arbitration award under the law. Both spouses could comply with the decision voluntarily, but the decision would not be enforceable if one of the people involved took it to court. The court may only enforce awards made in arbitration conducted exclusively under Canadian law. > > A religious official can conduct a family arbitration under Ontario law if that person is properly qualified to do so. To be qualified one has to have completed the required training and otherwise conduct the arbitration under the statutes and regulations. An award from such an arbitration would then be enforceable like any other arbitration. Currently this means I’m being force to pilgrimage to Mecca this weekend so I may not be able to post later. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/11 "2011-06-23T21:25:51Z")
All I did was point out the turban issue as one way in which we have created a ‘cultural mosaic’ instead of a melting pot. I didn’t editorialize about it at all. And I said that there was a movement to bring Sharia Law to Canada, and there was. ---
**Author:** ![Aqua\_regis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Aqua\_regis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aqua_regis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/12 "2011-06-23T21:28:58Z")
Off topic perhaps, but as a reader of _Trouw_, I feel obliged to point out it isn’t really center-right. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/13 "2011-06-23T21:37:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Got any other cites? Yup, it will be hard for you to discredit these: > **[Multiculturalism must go: Donner - DutchNews.nl](https://www.dutchnews.nl/2011/06/multiculturalism_must_go_donne/)** > > Dutch society and its values must take precedence and integration policy should go, home affairs minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament on Thursday evening during the presentation of his integration bill. Donner spoke of a ‘change of direction’ in... > [@](#): > > Dutch society and its values must take precedence and integration policy should go, home affairs minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament on Thursday evening during the presentation of his integration bill. > > **Donner spoke of a ‘change of direction’ in which the government ‘will distance itself from the relativism contained in the model of a multicultural society’.** Society changes, he said, but must not be ‘interchangeable with any other form of society’, according to press reports. [http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/migrants-fend-themselves](http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/migrants-fend-themselves) > [@](#): > > Minister Donner wants to put an end to policies for target groups. No more special treatment for Antilleans, Turks, Moroccans and other minorities. This cabinet thinks it’s up to migrants themselves to become useful members of society. > **snip** > The government no longer believes it’s its duty to help migrants to integrate into society. As a result, **the cabinet is distancing itself from the multicultural society as we know it.** ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/14 "2011-06-23T21:45:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [Sharia Law in Canada, Almost](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/feb/08/sharialawincanadaalmost) > > BBC: [Will Sharia Come to Canada?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3599264.stm) From your link: > [@](#): > > Family faith-based tribunals had been set up by Catholic and Jewish communities following the passing of the province’s Arbitration Act in 1991. > > The act was an attempt to deal with a backlog of court cases. It enabled groups to use the guiding principles of their faith to help settle disputes over divorce, inheritance and custody. I’m curious why people felt it was ok for Christians and Jews to settle disputes outside the court system but not Muslims? What on earth might cause them to make that distinction? [From the CBC:](http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html) > [@](#): > > Several groups that appeared before Boyd’s process of reviewing the Arbitration Act say it’s not Shariah law they want to set up but a Muslim Personal/Family Law process which has its roots in Shariah. > > \*\*The arbitration process as set out in the Arbitration Act is voluntary. \*\*Most of the concerns about the creation of “Shariah” tribunals have focused on the fear that Muslim women may feel they are being forced into taking part in a process of binding arbitration according to Muslim family law instead of resolving their disputes through the court system. > > In her report, former Ontario attorney general Marion Boyd stressed that any faith-based system would have to conform to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. (The bolding above is mine.) So, if I understand correctly, participation in this was voluntary on the part of both parties AND it was fine with everyone as long as Catholics and Jews did it but suddenly it was a problem when Muslims wanted to do the same. Again, I wonder why that might be? Darned if I have a clue. _scratching head in puzzlement_ ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/15 "2011-06-23T22:09:31Z")
Damnit, internet swallowed my post. There was a reasonable objection to Sharia arbitration, expressed by (among other people) one of my Muslim Canadian friends. It could/should apply to the Jewish arbitration, and conceivably the Catholic arbitration as well. Roughly: if Sharia arbitration is permitted, then there will be massive social pressures on some women to accede to it. Hence, their participation will be non-voluntary, potentially creating a legal avenue for discrimination against women. Hence, it is best to simply not permit Shariah arbitration at all. Really, accepting immigrants from other cultures is always going to raise some tensions between pluralism and basic rights. Four points, though: 1. This tension exists even without immigrants (for example with the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the FLDS in Canada); 2. This tension often reduces itself over subsequent generations (as with many Muslim Canadians); 3. This tension is a perfectly worthwhile cost to pay for getting the best and brightest of other countries as new citizens; and 4. There’s a big gap between serious issues of rights (like the Sharia arbitration question) and purely symbolic stuff (like letting Sikh Mounties keep their turbans), although some issues fall in between (like wearing kirpans in schools). ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/16 "2011-06-23T22:22:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And I said that there was a movement to bring Sharia Law to Canada, and there was. No, there wasn’t. There was a one-off issue to allow Muslims access to a religious arbitration system that paralleled the Jewish and Catholic systems that already existed, with regard to some matters of civil law. As a result, the Jewish and Catholic systems were eliminated, and the issue hasn’t come back. It was not “a movement to bring Sharia law to Canada”: Sharia law as a whole was not proposed, and it was in Ontario, not Canada wide, and it effectively eliminated all religious paths. Your presentation is disingenuously general. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/17 "2011-06-23T22:27:06Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Roughly: if Sharia arbitration is permitted, then there will be massive social pressures on some women to accede to it. Hence, their participation will be non-voluntary, potentially creating a legal avenue for discrimination against women. Whose idea was it that women shouldn’t be discriminated against in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/18 "2011-06-23T22:48:14Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Whose idea was it that women shouldn’t be discriminated against in the first place? I’m not getting your point. 😕 Would you please enunciate it more clearly? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/19 "2011-06-23T22:52:29Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Yup, it will be hard for you to discredit these: > [http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/06/multiculturalism\_must\_go\_donne.php](http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/06/multiculturalism_must_go_donne.php) > > [http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/migrants-fend-themselves](http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/migrants-fend-themselves) It will, on the other hand, be fairly easy to discredit you. You said that the Netherlands has abandoned multiculturalism. Yet the articles that you link to only say that one politician has done so and has proposed a law to that effect. That’s a lot different from what you’re claiming. In addition, **Jonathan Chance** asked you in post #4 why you’re claiming that this constitutes a rejection of “American multiculturalism” and “the dream of American liberals”, when nothing in any of these articles has anything do with the United States are American liberals. I note that you did not answer his question. I’m curious about exactly the same thing and I hope that you’ll provide an answer. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/20 "2011-06-23T22:53:12Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Hell, we tried that ‘separate’ thing here in the US in the south a while back. It didn’t hold up to prevailing constitutional beliefs and was struck down. I agree with you that “the separate thing” is too much. But the same thing can be said about “Affirmative action” that was part of the multicultural package introduced by American liberals in the 60s. [The term “affirmative action” was first used in the United States. It first appeared in Executive Order 10925, which was signed by President John F. Kennedy on March 6, 1961](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action) American liberals also introduced the [Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1965) which contrasted the [Immigration Act of 1924](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924) in one respect: Immigration should be allowed from all over the world in vast numbers and make the US a truly multicultural society(Hooray!). A few years later they lobbied in the UN for a legislative that would be very fateful for Sweden. The hordes of the third world that always have a reason to flee should be granted asylum in Sweden, the world’s leading welfare state. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=2)