# BREAKING NEWS: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606 "2011-06-23T20:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/181 "2011-06-28T03:14:50Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m basing my statements on direct observation on how Ramada was practiced in Yemen. What’s that got to do with Muslim practices in the West ? Here people fast until nightfall (though a couple of my Muslim friends in college would sneak a Snickers bar here and there. Allah’s the all forgiving ;)), have a big meal and go to bed at their usual hours. And hell, if staying up a bit late is “sleep deprivation”, I shudder at the thought of what you must think of the average guy’s Friday night. ETA: oh, and FWIW, Christians are supposed to fast during the 40 days of Lent too. So there’s that. > [@](#): > > Children are allowed to observe the fast. But not forced to, or even encouraged to. Not to mention, fasting is supposed to begin more or less around puberty, so “children” is a bit misleading in the first place. > [@](#): > > You mean law that sentences a woman to death by stoning because of adultery, or to the lash because she was raped? That law? Should my hatred for it be less extreme? Or should I accept it as being part of a different culture to my own? Cite of such rulings being issued in the West. If you go to fucked up places, surprise surprise, you’ll find fucked up practices. They’ll be justified in the name of Islam, or Christ, or Buddha, or tradition, or the FSM, or god knows what else. Laying it all on the Koran is not only short-sighted and simplistic, it’s _stupid_ and flies in the face of facts. > [@](#): > > Tell where I should put it on my ‘hate’ meter? Tell me why I should even want to allow a small foothold of such barbarity in my country? Again, could you please point us to a Canadian or Dutch Imam calling for a stoning ? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/182 "2011-06-28T03:27:44Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m basing my statements on direct observation on how Ramada was practiced in Yemen. Leaving aside the fact that you’ve just admittedly that you’ve made judgements about all Muslims based on how Islam is allegedly practiced in one of the poorest countries on earth(by such logic we should judge all Christians by how it’s practiced in Uganda) I wonder what makes you think people in Yemen suffer from sleep deprivation. Could you provide some evidence for such an assertion. > [@](#): > > Children are allowed to observe the fast. Translation: they don’t have to. In fact, in Iran, hardly a bastion of moderate Islam, they’re not even encouraged to. That said, thanks for basically admitting that your claims about them engaging in brainwashing was complete bullshit. > [@](#): > > You mean law that sentences a woman to death by stoning because of adultery, or to the lash because she was raped? That law? Should my hatred for it be less extreme? Or should I accept it as being part of a different culture to my own? Oh God, I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. Have you the slightest idea how foolish you look? You’ve based your opinions about Muslims based on what you’ve observed in Yemen and yet you apparently are unaware that even in backward Yemen, those laws aren’t practiced. Yes, there are a small number of Muslim countries that do commit such atrocities, but even the overwhelming majority which allow Sharia law don’t. Look, you’ve revealed yourself to be horrifically ignorant about Islam so I’ll let you in on a secret. What is and isn’t “Sharia” is very much open for debate. It is constantly evolving like Common law and as a result, the vast majority of countries that practice Sharia don’t do stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/183 "2011-06-28T03:47:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Please. The more civilized aspects of “western society” were mostly put in place against the tooth-and-nail opposition of Christianity. Such a myopic [view,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Western_civilization) > [@](#): > > Joseph Schumpeter, an economist of the twentieth century, referring to the Scholastics, wrote, “it is they who come nearer than does any other group to having been the ‘founders’ of scientific economics.”[61] Other economists and historians, such as Raymond de Roover, Marjorie Grice-Hutchinson, and Alejandro Chafuen, have also made similar statements. Historian Paul Legutko of Stanford University said the Catholic Church is “at the center of the development of the values, ideas, science, laws, and institutions which constitute what we call Western civilization.”[62]… > > Several historians credit the Catholic Church for what they consider to be the brilliance and magnificence of Western art.[citation needed] They refer to the Church’s consistent opposition to Byzantine iconoclasm, a movement against visual representations of the divine, and its insistence on building structures befitting worship. Important contributions include its cultivation and patronage of individual artists, as well as development of the Romanesque, Gothic and Renaissance styles of art and architecture.[54] Renaissance artists such as Raphael, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Bernini, Botticelli, Fra Angelico, Tintoretto, Caravaggio, and Titian, were among a multitude of innovative virtuosos sponsored by the Church.[55] > > In music, Catholic monks developed the first forms of modern Western musical notation in order to standardize liturgy throughout the worldwide Church,[58] and an enormous body of religious music has been composed for it through the ages. This led directly to the emergence and development of European classical music, and its many derivatives. The Baroque style, which encompassed music, art, and architecture, was particularly encouraged by the post-Reformation Catholic Church as such forms offered a means of religious expression that was stirring and emotional, intended to stimulate religious fervor.[59] > … > The Catholic Church established a hospital system in Medieval Europe that was different from the merely reciprocal hospitality of the Greeks and family-based obligations of the Romans. These hospitals were established to cater to “particular social groups marginalized by poverty, sickness, and age,” according to historian of hospitals, Guenter Risse.[ ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/184 "2011-06-28T07:48:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Do you deny that during Ramadan Muslims aren’t allowed to drink and eat during the day? Do you also deny that in practice they then spend most of the night making up for it resulting in a lack of sleep? Do you also deny that rather than the _ **FIVE** _ times a day prayers there are even more where the entire Koran is read over the course of a month? What percentage of the day do you think this adds up to where religion is the only focus? You know, I’ve hung out with an awful lot of people observing Ramadan, and I’ve never noticed any of them failing to function properly. Obviously Ramadan’s a lot harder in the desert than in, say, Canada, but still, this is just silly. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > In the same sense that Christians and Jews have “a duty-- or at least a justification” to anyone who goes to another religion. > > Deuteronomy 13:7-12 I’m not sure why Christians would follow Jewish apostasy laws — presumably to kill people who leave Judaism? Wait, no, that can’t be right. Okay, sarcasm aside, the New Testament talks about apostates, and killing them is never on the table. You can leave Christianity out of that one. For that matter, neither Christianity nor Judaism has in the last several decades had anywhere near the same issues with apostates. There are a lots of cases of Orthodox oppressing (mostly Protestant) missionaries, but is there anything to match the Afghani trial of an ex-Muslim who had converted to Christianity? For that matter, are there any outright bans on proselytizing to match those in large swaths of the Muslim world? I actually agree with you —Islam in Western countries is fairly moderate, and only getting more so with time. But that doesn’t mean that Islam and Judaism and Christianity are all in the same place at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/185 "2011-06-28T08:12:09Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > I’m not sure why Christians would follow Jewish apostasy laws — presumably to kill people who leave Judaism? Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine would both disagree with you. They certainly agreed that the killing of apostates was something that Jesus would approved of. > [@](#): > > Okay, sarcasm aside, the New Testament talks about apostates, and killing them is never on the table. That’s not true at all. Jesus famously proclaimed that they needed to follow every “jot and tittle” of the laws of Moses. > [@](#): > > There are a lots of cases of Orthodox oppressing (mostly Protestant) missionaries, but is there anything to match the Afghani trial of an ex-Muslim who had converted to Christianity? You’re certainly correct that for geopolitical reasons most of the Middle East is more backward than Europe, but you’ll notice that in Sub-Saharran Africa, both the Muslim and Christian parts are far more brutal towards gays, women and apostates. I’m not aware of Iranians murdering “witches” but numerous Christians in Africa have done so. The differences between who the Iranians and the French behave have nothing to do with scriptural differences between Islam and Catholicism and everything to do with the history of those two countries. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/186 "2011-06-28T08:36:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I wonder what makes you think people in Yemen suffer from sleep deprivation. Because they do during the month of Ramadan. Or maybe it is a weird fucking coincidence that people are falling asleep at their desks and driving off the roads more during those times? > [@](#): > > That said, thanks for basically admitting that your claims about them engaging in brainwashing was complete bullshit. Never answered what percentage of the day they are required to spend on religion, huh? Didn’t think so. Repeated drilling of the doctrine into their heads is brainwashing. That it increases during a month long period where lack of food, water and sleep makes it even more effective. Even if the kids aren’t required to fast they are still subject to increased religious activities. > [@](#): > > You’ve based your opinions about Muslims based on what you’ve observed in Yemen and yet you apparently are unaware that even in backward Yemen, those laws aren’t practiced. Sharia is practiced in Yemen. It is the basis for its laws, in fact. While the examples that I have stated are the extreme, the lesser affects of things like a women’s word is less than a man’s and other ridiculousness are apparent. > [@](#): > > What is and isn’t “Sharia” is very much open for debate. It is constantly evolving like Common law and as a result, the vast majority of countries that practice Sharia don’t do stuff like that. You’ve just stated my concern. It is open for debate. It is assumed that the Muslims who have emigrated to other countries are the peaceful non-fundamental kind who will implement the kinder gentler form of Sharia. I don’t know why we should make that assumption, but even if so, there is no guarantee that today’s mild Sharia won’t turn into tomorrows chopping people’s heads off version. Why cater to it at all? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/187 "2011-06-28T09:02:07Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You’ve just stated my concern. It is open for debate. It is assumed that the Muslims who have emigrated to other countries are the peaceful non-fundamental kind who will implement the kinder gentler form of Sharia. I don’t know why we should make that assumption, but even if so, there is no guarantee that today’s mild Sharia won’t turn into tomorrows chopping people’s heads off version. Why cater to it at all? There’s no guarantee that today’s allowing public prayer won’t turn into tomorrow’s Handmaid’s Tale-style society either. But your cherrypicking of some of the worst bits of Islam whilst waving away comparable bits of Christianity and Judaism does not suggest that you’re approaching any of this rationally. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/188 "2011-06-28T09:20:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But your cherrypicking of some of the worst bits of Islam whilst waving away comparable bits of Christianity and Judaism does not suggest that you’re approaching any of this rationally. Really? You talk about rationality while saying that I am waving away comparible bits of other religions when I haven’t done so. I am quite willing to state at this point in time some religions are worse than others. That is a comparative ranking where there is ‘bad’ and ‘not quite so bad, but still pretty damned bad’. Where could you conceivably get the idea that just because I’m a detractor of one means that I’m a fan of the other? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/189 "2011-06-28T09:31:40Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Do you deny that during Ramadan Muslims aren’t allowed to drink and eat during the day? Do you also deny that in practice they then spend most of the night making up for it resulting in a lack of sleep? Do you also deny that rather than the _ **FIVE** _ times a day prayers there are even more where the entire Koran is read over the course of a month? What percentage of the day do you think this adds up to where religion is the only focus? What the fuck is your problem with Islam?! Hey, question: Have you ever spent a month paying attention to what you eat, focusing inward, being with your family, and contemplating life’s lessons and values? Probably not. I doubt you have that kind of mental skillset. Stop knocking what you don’t understand. > [@](#): > > I’m just reporting the facts. You’re the one wanting to reinterpret them into something harmless. _Facts_? That’s what we call Islamaphobia now? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > since Israel allows for the practice of Sharia law and bases many of it’s own laws on Sharia law. I understand some Ottoman law is left over, and that Muslims generally have control over their own family law issues, but isn’t much of greater Israeli law based on western law and Jewish law? Or maybe Jews and Muslims laid a pretty decent foundation for western civilization. 😉 > [@Uzi](#): > > Never answered what percentage of the day they are required to spend on religion, huh? Didn’t think so. Repeated drilling of the doctrine into their heads is brainwashing. That it increases during a month long period where lack of food, water and sleep makes it even more effective. Even if the kids aren’t required to fast they are still subject to increased religious activities. EGADS NO! Teaching your children about your culture! Stop the horror! > [@](#): > > Sharia is practiced in Yemen. It is the basis for its laws, in fact. While the examples that I have stated are the extreme, the lesser affects of things like a women’s word is less than a man’s and other ridiculousness are apparent. Yemen is not the greater Muslim world. The default sharia law in Yemen is just like English Common Law in the U.S. Which, not coincidentally, is based on religious doctrine. > [@](#): > > You’ve just stated my concern. It is open for debate. It is assumed that the Muslims who have emigrated to other countries are the peaceful non-fundamental kind who will implement the kinder gentler form of Sharia. I don’t know why we should make that assumption, but even if so, there is no guarantee that today’s mild Sharia won’t turn into tomorrows chopping people’s heads off version. Why cater to it at all? _Chopping off heads_ version? Should we not let the French govern themselves, either? Since you’re a product of the army, does that mean you’re an expert on indoctrination and drilling and we’re just ignorant to the rest of the world…? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/190 "2011-06-28T09:41:42Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Really? You talk about rationality while saying that I am waving away comparible bits of other religions when I haven’t done so. I am quite willing to state at this point in time some religions are worse than others. That is a comparative ranking where there is ‘bad’ and ‘not quite so bad, but still pretty damned bad’. Care to share how this ranking system works? What makes Islam worse than Buddhism? Or Judaism? It’s not like Imperialist China was boodless and demure, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/191 "2011-06-28T09:50:34Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Really? You talk about rationality while saying that I am waving away comparible bits of other religions when I haven’t done so. I am quite willing to state at this point in time some religions are worse than others. That is a comparative ranking where there is ‘bad’ and ‘not quite so bad, but still pretty damned bad’. > Where could you conceivably get the idea that just because I’m a detractor of one means that I’m a fan of the other? Maybe because you’re using Yemen as an exemplar of True Islam whilst ignoring Christianity as practiced in, say, West Africa where they torture and kill young children for being “witches” or [crucifixion](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1901095.stm) going on in the Philippines or the Catholic Church’s coverup of child abuse or, well, [these guys](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2481/3620046579_d56a212c10.jpg), while ignoring the fact that the vast number of Muslims are not brainwashed apostate-murdering drones-in-waiting but rather normal people going about their daily business and trying to understand their place in the universe like everyone else. Yes, Islam has a violent crazy wing and those people are bad people who should be shunned but implying that everyone who _isn’t_ like that should be treated as if they potentially are suggests an irrational bias. I don’t see you suggesting that we should treat all Catholics like pedophiles until we’re sure they’re not. That’s the bias I see, and the fact that your argument boils down to “I’m not biased against Muslims; it’s just that they’re worse than everyone else” while using a skewed set of criteria to show it makes it pretty obvious to everyone but yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/192 "2011-06-28T10:54:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Maybe because you’re using Yemen as an exemplar of True Islam whilst ignoring Christianity as practiced in, say You are right. Saudi Arabia to the north of Yemen is decidedly more liberal in its approach to Islam:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I don’t see you suggesting that we should treat all Catholics like pedophiles until we’re sure they’re not. How have I suggested we treat any Muslims at all? Please indicate where I’ve said to treat them any differently than any other citizen? Oh, wait, you can’t because I haven’t. > [@](#): > > That’s the bias I see, The only bias you see is in your own head. A bias against someone for calling something evil that clearly is so. And if it wasn’t a major religion, it would be ranked right up their with Scientology. But to clarify, I am as against separate ‘courts’ based upon any religion. That is why we have a secular court. To handle things fairly with no regard to the religion you practice. I am against giving people exemptions, no matter how trivial, based upon their religion. They get treated as any other citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/193 "2011-06-28T19:29:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You are right. Saudi Arabia to the north of Yemen is decidedly more liberal in its approach to Islam:rolleyes: > > How have I suggested we treat any Muslims at all? Please indicate where I’ve said to treat them any differently than any other citizen? Oh, wait, you can’t because I haven’t. > > The only bias you see is in your own head. A bias against someone for calling something evil that clearly is so. And if it wasn’t a major religion, it would be ranked right up their with Scientology. > But to clarify, I am as against separate ‘courts’ based upon any religion. That is why we have a secular court. To handle things fairly with no regard to the religion you practice. I am against giving people exemptions, no matter how trivial, based upon their religion. They get treated as any other citizen. So long as sharia or halachah or any other form of law **doesn’t** violate that of its country, let it stand. It’s not hurting you. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/194 "2011-06-29T01:12:19Z")
The problem isn’t necessarily multiculturalism, it’s that they happen to have imported a hostile minority group who have a grudge against other groups. > [@](#): > > After hiding his skullcap and being harassed, son of Amsterdam’s chief rabbi flees to Israel. Senior Dutch politician: Jews with conscience should leave… > > He also told of how recently, he is careful never to leave the house wearing his fur hat and hides his skullcap under a baseball cap when going through neighborhoods with high concentrations of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants… > > Ever’s announcement continues a storm sparked last week when former EU Commissioner Frits Bolkestein, the former head of the Dutch Liberal Party, stated that “Jews with a conscience should leave Holland, where they and their children have no future, leave for the US or Israel.” > > Bolkestein admitted to being pessimistic with regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which, in his opinion, is fanning the flames of anti-Semitism in his country. “Holland has Arab television channels that promote anti-Semitism,” he noted. > **[The escape from Holland](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3998968,00.html)** > > After hiding his skullcap and being harassed, son of Amsterdam's chief rabbi flees to Israel. Senior Dutch politician: Jews with conscience should leave ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/195 "2011-06-29T01:51:24Z")
You don’t have to be a Muslim to dislike observant Jews in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/196 "2011-06-29T02:11:04Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You don’t have to be a Muslim to dislike observant Jews in Europe. No, but Muslim immigrants are driving the increase in anti-semitic violence. > [@](#): > > We are disappointed that in its public statements, the EUMC downplays its own conclusions that the new anti-Semitic outbreak is connected to the Arab-Israeli conflict and that incidents are being primarily perpetrated by Muslim immigrant youth, and concerned by the report’s narrow approach to the connection of anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism. > > Even after a previous EUMC report produced in 2003 was not released by the Centre, reportedly because of the report’s conclusion that Muslim immigrants were responsible for the sharp increase in anti-Semitic violence in the Spring of 2002, the EU still appears unwilling to acknowledge its own findings that Muslim immigrant youth are increasingly responsible for anti-Semitic violence motivated by the conflict in the Middle East. [http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt\_13/4473\_13.htm](http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4473_13.htm) Also, attitudes to gays are rather conservative at the same time that Europe generally is getting more liberal. > [@](#): > > Interestingly you can’t even calculate a real ratio for British Muslims to the general public, not one British Muslim surveyed would admit to homosexuality being morally acceptable. [http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/) > [@](#): > > Teachers in several local schools have told The Sunday Telegraph that they feel “under pressure” from local Muslim extremists, who have mounted campaigns through both parents and pupils – and, in one case, through another teacher - to enforce the compulsory wearing of the veil for Muslim girls. “It was totally orchestrated,” said one teacher. “The atmosphere became extremely unpleasant for a while, with constant verbal aggression from both the children and some parents against the head over this issue.” > > One teacher at the Bigland Green primary school, Nicholas Kafouris, last year took the council to an employment tribunal, saying he was forced out of his job for complaining that Muslim pupils were engaging in racist and anti-Semitic bullying and saying they supported terrorism. Mr Kafouris lost his case, though the school did admit that insufficient action had been taken against the behaviour of some pupils. The number of assaults on teachers in Tower Hamlets resulting in exclusions has more than doubled from 190 in 2007/8 to 383 in 2008/9, the latest available year, though not all are necessarily race-related… > > Tower Hamlets’ gay community has become a particular target of extremists. Homophobic crimes in the borough have risen by 80 per cent since 2007/8, and by 21 per cent over the last year, a period when there was a slight drop in London as a whole. > **[Police 'covered up' violent campaign to turn London area 'Islamic'](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html)** > > Police have been accused of “covering up” a campaign of abuse, threats and violence aimed at “Islamicising” an area of London. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/197 "2011-06-29T06:28:06Z")
You know what’s worse than Muslim youth hating Jews for the Israeli-Arab conflict? European governments (you know? the grown-ups? people in charge?) who choose to downplay it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/198 "2011-06-29T22:30:02Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The problem isn’t necessarily multiculturalism, it’s that they happen to have imported a hostile minority group who have a grudge against other groups. Which is definitely worse than the native-born groups who have a grudge against other groups. I mean, who needs the competition? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/199 "2011-06-29T23:33:04Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You don’t have to be a Muslim to dislike observant Jews in Europe. …But it helps! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/200 "2011-06-30T03:01:04Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > …But it helps! I wasn’t aware that Hitler, the Czars or the Poles were Muslims. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=11)