# BREAKING NEWS: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606 "2011-06-23T20:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/21 "2011-06-23T22:56:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It will, on the other hand, be fairly easy to discredit you. You said that the Netherlands has abandoned multiculturalism. Yet the articles that you link to only say that one politician has done so and has proposed a law to that effect. That’s a lot different from what you’re claiming. He speaks for the entire government. It could not be clearer. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/22 "2011-06-23T23:22:38Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > I agree with you that “the separate thing” is too much. But the same thing can be said about “Affirmative action” that was part of the multicultural package introduced by American liberals in the 60s. [The term “affirmative action” was first used in the United States. It first appeared in Executive Order 10925, which was signed by President John F. Kennedy on March 6, 1961](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action) > > American liberals also introduced the [Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1965) which contrasted the [Immigration Act of 1924](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924) in one respect: Immigration should be allowed from all over the world in vast numbers and make the US a truly multicultural society(Hooray!). A few years later they lobbied in the UN for a legislative that would be very fateful for Sweden. The hordes of the third world that always have a reason to flee should be granted asylum in Sweden, the world’s leading welfare state. And yet, Geert Wilders says that their immigration policy needs to be [more like America’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jUuzdfqfc). The one after 1965. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/23 "2011-06-23T23:59:41Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Of the four most progressive countries in Europe (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland) TWO have now officially abandoned “American” multiculturalism. Hi, Swedish guy here. You seem not to understand how the word “multiculturalism” is used in Europe; it is not perceived as an “American” model, but exclusively European. There’s a growing realisation that “multikulti” has not worked out very well in Europe, where immigrants, often refugees without jobs, without knowing the language in the new country, without much prospects, are grouped into certain areas where they are supposed to have their own culture unaltered. This often causes alienation and sociological problems because they never get integrated; you get societies within the society where kids growing up have very little chance and often no will to get a regular job and learn the language, becoming part of the larger society (this is simplified of course). The multikulti model has failed, according to Angela Merkel and others; it simply does not work very well. In Denmark (who’s immigration politics I do not agree with) there is even talk about to literally demolish such neighbourhoods supposedly to force integration…! The “American model” by contrast, is perceived as the successful one – the “melting pot”, where people go to America and become Americans. So if you are of non-American heritage, you soon identify yourself as an American. Not so with multikulti – you are still [this-or-that] living in, say, Sweden. As time goes by there is no mutual respect or interest, and as everyone can imagine, the society-within-the-society has its own rules which do not necessarily comply with the ethics and even the law of the larger society. This leads to all kind of problems. So the European countries you are talking about, are not abandoning “American multiculturalism”, but “European multiculturalism”. > [@](#): > > This news is not available in the Swedish media. Wonder why…😉 Are you implying something by this, and if so, would you like tell us instead of using smilies. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/24 "2011-06-24T00:04:57Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > [http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism](http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism) > > Of the four most progressive countries in Europe (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland) TWO have now officially abandoned “American” multiculturalism. Are you surprised that the Dutch and Danes are no longer in favor of the dream society of American liberals? No more affirmative actions for colored people. No more special subsidies for Muslim immigrants. Everybody will have the same rights and obligations. Doesn’t it sound a bit fascist? Can we allow the majority to determine the direction of our societies? Isn’t that just pure populism? > > This news is not available in the Swedish media. Wonder why…😉 This is not surprising. When you have former EU commissioners suggesting it is no longer safe for Jewish people in Holland something has to change. > [@](#): > > “I see no future for recognizable Jews, in particular because of anti-Semitism, specifically in Dutch Moroccans, who continue to grow in number,” Bolkestein reportedly said. > > The former politician added that the many Arab television channels in the Netherlands contribute to the spread of anti-Semitism. He said he has no confidence in proposed measures to combat anti-Jewish sentiment. > **[Jewish Diaspora | The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/diaspora)** > > News affecting Diaspora jews, issues in the Jewish world, holidays and chagim in the Diaspora, kosher food, families and faith ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/25 "2011-06-24T00:06:42Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > Are you implying something by this, and if so, would you like tell us instead of using smilies. I think he’s implying that the Swedish media are overwhelmingly in favor of promoting multiculturalism & immigration while downplaying or ignoring any downsides. > [@](#): > > According to a recent survey 87% of journalists in Swedish television are liberal, leftist or socialist… > > This article could not possibly be written in a major Swedish Newspaper in the current intellectual atmosphere. The liberal New York Times is way too honest about the problems caused by non-western immigration to Sweden. > > You have to admire America as effectively more democratic than conformist Sweden, where a small group of like minded people decide what facts the public can be trusted to handle. [http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/26 "2011-06-24T00:09:56Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I think he’s implying that the Swedish media are overwhelmingly in favor of promoting multiculturalism & immigration while downplaying or ignoring any downsides. Ok, thanks! – While Sweden is perhaps the most politically correct nation on earth, there is some truth to this, but the issue as such is discussed in the media; not the least after the Angela Merkel announcement. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/27 "2011-06-24T00:12:41Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > Are you implying something by this, and if so, would you like tell us instead of using smilies. He thinks the Swedish media is censoring the Truth. From the other thread: > [@Will cultural Marxism affect Europe more than economic Marxism?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/72): > > Did you know that ALL major newspapers and TV channels in Sweden actively opposed the Sweden Democrats? On election day, both Aftonbladet and Expressen showed a big appeal on their front page urging the Swedes NOT to vote on SD. SD’s commercial was not allowed to be shown on TV. Not really a fair and democratic election. By the way, Arnold Antoni is not a member of parliament, but Michael Aastrup Jensen, a member of the Danish Parliament for the Liberal Party, says this: > _“None of the established parties and none of the established media in Sweden like to discuss it because they feel like it is not politically correct,” said Jensen. “There is a ‘blanket’ drawn all over the Swedish media. This should be a wake-up call to all the other parties.”_ [http://rt.com/politics/swedish-elections-immigration-controversy/](http://rt.com/politics/swedish-elections-immigration-controversy/) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/28 "2011-06-24T00:18:47Z")
As a Western Cultural supremacist I rejoice at this news. Our civilization should aim for complete westernization of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/29 "2011-06-24T00:39:22Z")
Thanks, **Der Trihs** , I should have figured. The Swedish Democrats is a populistic/nationalistic party with a history of nazi flirtation, though recently they remodeled themself to get some votes. Below is a link the political commercial the OP is talking about in the quote you provided. The story in the commercial is that Sweden’s financial situation is desperate (it is actually rock solid), and yet Sweden is spending all her money on muslim immigrants instead of supporting Swedish seniors, which is obviously nonsense (and the vast majority of immigrants to Sweden are christians, by the way). Even though you don’t understand the language, the stupidity is universal: [Link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRRdth8AHc). ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/30 "2011-06-24T00:42:00Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > Thanks, **Der Trihs** , I should have figured. The Swedish Democrats is a populistic/nationalistic party with a history of nazi flirtation, though recently they remodeled themself to get some votes. > > Below is a link the political commercial the OP is talking about in the quote you provided. The story in the commercial is that Sweden’s financial situation is desperate (it is actually rock solid), and yet Sweden is spending all her money on muslim immigrants instead of supporting Swedish seniors, which is obviously nonsense (and the vast majority of immigrants to Sweden are christians, by the way). Even though you don’t understand the language, the stupidity is universal: [Link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRRdth8AHc). Despite its past (by that logic we must condemn the Democrats for their Dixiecrat past) the Swedish Democrat’s included many immigrants (including Chaldean Christains) in its ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/31 "2011-06-24T00:47:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Despite its past (by that logic we must condemn the Democrats for their Dixiecrat past) the Swedish Democrat’s included many immigrants (including Chaldean Christains) in its ranks. So…? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/32 "2011-06-24T00:50:06Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > Thanks, **Der Trihs** , I should have figured. The Swedish Democrats is a populistic/nationalistic party with a history of nazi flirtation, though recently they remodeled themself to get some votes. > > Below is a link the political commercial the OP is talking about in the quote you provided. The story in the commercial is that Sweden’s financial situation is desperate (it is actually rock solid), and yet Sweden is spending all her money on muslim immigrants instead of supporting Swedish seniors, which is obviously nonsense (and the vast majority of immigrants to Sweden are christians, by the way). Even though you don’t understand the language, the stupidity is universal: [Link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRRdth8AHc). The basic point is a valid one. Places like Sweden have strong welfare systems. If you change the balance of dependents/tax payers too much by changing the demographics it may [upset the system](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/decline-and-fall-of-scandinavian-social.html). > [@](#): > > Many non-western immigrants take full advantage of all the generous benefits, and some cheat if they can. This behavior has forced the Scandinavians to make social insurance payments less generous for everybody, and to introduce harsher controls. The unintended consequence is that a 55 year old Swedish working class women with health problems cannot get early retirement as easily as she could in 1985, because the system has become less trusting to everyone due to abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/33 "2011-06-24T00:52:13Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The basic point is a valid one. The “basic point” – what “basic point”? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/34 "2011-06-24T00:58:00Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > The “basic point” – what “basic point”? That the Swedish social welfare model (any social welfare model) is not going to be sustainable with large scale low skill immigration. Even less so if the groups are not culturally compatible. Milton Friedman pointed this out about 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/35 "2011-06-24T01:01:28Z")
But then how come Sweden has pretty much the best financial situation in Europe right now? – And the blog you quoted, that’s just somebody talking out of his hat. The immigration in Sweden is not without problems, certainly, but don’t give me this tired old crap. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/36 "2011-06-24T01:08:47Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > But then how come Sweden has pretty much the best financial situation in Europe right now? – And the blog you quoted, that’s just somebody talking out of his hat. The immigration in Sweden is not without problems, certainly, but don’t give me this tired old crap. He’s referring to the impacts in the longer run if the demographics change so you increase the proportion of non-working adults. What are the mathematical effects of continually adding to the denominator while keeping the numerator constant or growing at a far smaller rate than the denominator? What are the effects of adding net tax recipients to a system where the net tax contributors grow at a slower rate? What happens to income inequality when the floor keeps getting lowered by the [importation of poverty](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/03/mystery-of-child-poverty-in-sweden.html)? The usual response is to call for more confiscation from those in the higher income quintiles. As the numerator holds constant and the denominator continues to grow over the years, with the added people who comprise the denominator disproportionately filling out the lowest income quintiles, the redistribution effect gets diluted and the calls for even more expansive redistribution grow stronger. The effect is akin to a rowboat with a hole in it needing to be bailed while on a journey across the lake as the occupants of the row boat purposely make the hole larger and larger, thus necessitating ever more vigorous bailing. Importation of poverty is not a rational policy choice. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/37 "2011-06-24T01:10:04Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > So…? I was correcting the implied statement that the Swedish Democrats consist of lunatic neo-Nazis and those of that ilk. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/38 "2011-06-24T01:13:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I was correcting the implied statement that the Swedish Democrats consist of lunatic neo-Nazis and those of that ilk. I made no “implied statement” of the kind. If there were any factual errors in my post, please point them out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/39 "2011-06-24T01:18:27Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Of the four most progressive countries in Europe (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland) TWO have now officially abandoned “American” multiculturalism. Wait, when did any country in Europe ever **adopt** “American” multiculturalism? When did they ever look to American models for their immigration policy or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/40 "2011-06-24T01:20:15Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > I made no “implied statement” of the kind. If there were any factual errors in my post, please point them out. Okay, sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=3)