# BREAKING NEWS: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606 "2011-06-23T20:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/41 "2011-06-24T01:20:52Z")
I’m a little curious as why the OP, who IIRC is Swedish and lives in that country, is citing a right wing American think tank. According to the Wikipedia [article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Institute), on a scale of 1 to 8 ranging from left to right respectively, the Hudson Institute ranks 7. I’m trying to look at the Dutch government’s “covering letter”, as the Hudson writer puts it, but for some reason Starbucks’ wi-fi isn’t allowing me to pull up any of the links in the article. I thought it’s been several years since The Netherlands set forth a policy of encouraging immigrants to integrate into the prevailing Dutch culture, among other things requiring newcomers to learn Dutch, and advising them to stay away if they could not reconcile themselves to the free-ranging cultural environment of the country. Today’s statement seems to be little more than a reconfirming of that statement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/42 "2011-06-24T01:23:00Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I must have missed a memo somewhere along the way. How is ‘multiculturalism’ a product of American liberals? And how is multiculturalism a means of having ‘two separate cultures’ instead of one culture that respects all within a larger framework. > > Hell, we tried that ‘separate’ thing here in the US in the south a while back. It didn’t hold up to prevailing constitutional beliefs and was struck down. > > In short, your argument, sir or madam, is a farce. **Canada** has “two separate cultures” . . . **permanently**. . . and despite the occasional Gallic fussing, it works **amazingly,** at least seen from down here; against all odds, there does seem to be a Canadian national identity that transcends the divide. Not saying that’s a model for all to copy, only that anyone who tries to scare us with the prospect should bear in mind that that is the shape of the boogeyman. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/43 "2011-06-24T01:24:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, when did any country in Europe ever **adopt** “American” multiculturalism? When did they ever look to American models for their immigration policy or whatever? It was forced on them by us evil American Marxists: > [@Will cultural Marxism affect Europe more than economic Marxism?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/52): > > Political correctness was not invented in Sweden. It was indirectly imposed on Sweden and all other countries of the western world by their almighty leader, USA. Political correctness is a very clever construct. If you oppose it, you will be stigmatized in the classic Marxist way, well known to political dissidents of former Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/44 "2011-06-24T01:24:54Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > He’s referring to the impacts in the longer run if the demographics change so you increase the proportion of non-working adults. What are the mathematical effects of continually adding to the denominator while keeping the numerator constant or growing at a far smaller rate than the denominator? > > What are the effects of adding net tax recipients to a system where the net tax contributors grow at a slower rate? > > What happens to income inequality when the floor keeps getting lowered by the [importation of poverty](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/03/mystery-of-child-poverty-in-sweden.html)? The usual response is to call for more confiscation from those in the higher income quintiles. As the numerator holds constant and the denominator continues to grow over the years, with the added people who comprise the denominator disproportionately filling out the lowest income quintiles, the redistribution effect gets diluted and the calls for even more expansive redistribution grow stronger. The effect is akin to a rowboat with a hole in it needing to be bailed while on a journey across the lake as the occupants of the row boat purposely make the hole larger and larger, thus necessitating ever more vigorous bailing. > > Importation of poverty is not a rational policy choice. If this was true, and if it was as simple, Sweden would have gone down the drain a long time ago; for decades Sweden has been extremely generous to immigrants, from the early '70 and still is. But instead, Sweden is going like a freight train. And with a population growing older and older, Sweden will probably thanks to its immigration do much much better than for instance Finland, who has virtually none. But naturally this demands that immigrants get work, and that is the great challange. – Personally I think that Sweden needs to limit the numbers right now, simply because of the risks you are describing; I recognize the risks. But that is one thing, what the Swedish Democrats or the bloke with the blog quoted to earlier, is fundamentally another. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/45 "2011-06-24T01:26:43Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > The “basic point” – what “basic point”? “Brown people are bad”; this is **Chen019**. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/46 "2011-06-24T02:17:36Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As a Canadian, I grew up having it beaten into my head that Canada was a ‘cultural mosaic’, where immigrants were encouraged to maintain their own cultures and values, whereas the inferior Americans were a ‘melting pot’ where people who immigrated were expected to put American values and cultural norms ahead of those of their old country. > > Thus in Canada you can be charged with a ‘hate crime’ for criticizing another culture, and there is a movement to allow parallel sharia law courts, and RCMP officers from the Sikh community can wear turbans instead of traditional RCMP headgear. > … > I have no problem with you maintaining your own culture so long as it doesn’t conflict with the values of my country, but I expect you to be a Canadian first and respect Canadian law and Canadian cultural institutions. So you may not have intended it **Sam** but you threw out the RCMP/Sikh issue (resolved 21 years ago) as a failure of multiculturalism. What is highlights in my opinion is the exact opposite. It’s an example of integration and adaptation of traditions into a new things. The RCMP headgear tradition _excluded_ Canadians from serving. The tradition adapted, became more inclusive and we moved on. This strikes me a substantially different from the European experience where it seems to have been built around either segregating groups or excluding them due to tradition and the weight of history. From a high level you could say America opted for assimilation, Europe for segregation and Canada for adaptation. And the sharia law issue was hashed out years ago as a simple expansion of faith-based arbitration. The Sharia panic was a post 9/11 over reaction wrapped inside a concern for “subjected women”. Instead of wailing over Sharia law creeping into our lives we’d be better off debating the validity of free agents agreeing to arbitration within a religious framework or whether or not the state has any place in that discussion out side the rights all citizens have as Canadians. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/47 "2011-06-24T02:18:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > … and there is a movement to allow parallel sharia law courts Complete nonsense. In any event “multiculturalism” as practised in Canada is dramatically different from what some European countries have been trying. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/48 "2011-06-24T02:19:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As a Western Cultural supremacist I rejoice at this news. Our civilization should aim for complete westernization of the world. Good luck with that lad, the path you want to go down. Hey, aren’t you a little bit _too much_ Korean? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/49 "2011-06-24T02:25:09Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Good luck with that lad, the path you want to go down. Hey, aren’t you a little bit _too much_ Korean? No biology does not matter. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/50 "2011-06-24T02:36:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No biology does not matter. A viewpoint that conflicts with being a “Western Cultural supremacist”. Among other things, that means hating everyone who isn’t a white male Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/51 "2011-06-24T02:38:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No biology does not matter. Aye, I agree. But be careful about flinging around such dumb things as this statement: > [@](#): > > As a Western Cultural supremacist I rejoice at this news. Our civilization should aim for complete westernization of the world. Might come back to bite you in the arse. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/52 "2011-06-24T02:41:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A viewpoint that conflicts with being a “Western Cultural supremacist”. Among other things, that means hating everyone who isn’t a white male Christian. Note the word _cultural_ and for that matter I’m Asiatic biologically speaking. > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Aye, I agree. But be careful about flinging around such dumb things as this statement: > > Might come back to bite you in the arse. I do tend to sometimes say things that are “exaggerations” of my actual views. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/53 "2011-06-24T02:45:19Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > If this was true, and if it was as simple, Sweden would have gone down the drain a long time ago; for decades Sweden has been extremely generous to immigrants, from the early '70 and still is. But instead, Sweden is going like a freight train. And with a population growing older and older, Sweden will probably thanks to its immigration do much much better than for instance Finland, who has virtually none. But naturally this demands that immigrants get work, and that is the great challange. – Personally I think that Sweden needs to limit the numbers right now, simply because of the risks you are describing; I recognize the risks. But that is one thing, what the Swedish Democrats or the bloke with the blog quoted to earlier, is fundamentally another. Well, the employment levels is a major point Tino makes. That and the issue of [assimilation over subsequent generations](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/10/second-generation-immigrants-in-europe.html). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/54 "2011-06-24T02:50:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Note the word _cultural_ and for that matter I’m Asiatic biologically speaking. And _western culture_ has a long history of racism and xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/55 "2011-06-24T02:50:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And _western culture_ has a long history of racism and xenophobia. Which it has largely abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/56 "2011-06-24T02:55:47Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I do tend to sometimes say things that are “exaggerations” of my actual views. Fair enough. Perhaps take a wee deep breath sometimes, before you post? Not that anyone else does, to be honest 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/57 "2011-06-24T03:07:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Which it has largely abandoned. And **RaleighRally** don’t **like** that. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/58 "2011-06-24T03:09:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And _western culture_ has a long history of racism and xenophobia. Unlike the peaceful, non-tribal, non-western cultures 😃 :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/59 "2011-06-24T03:11:26Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Unlike the peaceful, non-tribal, non-western cultures 😃 :rolleyes: Irrelevant, since I’m not claiming they are superior. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/60 "2011-06-24T03:11:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Our civilization should aim for complete westernization of the world. A world where leaders settle things with duels at high noon might be an improvement . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=4)