# BREAKING NEWS: The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606 "2011-06-23T20:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/81 "2011-06-24T05:51:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Multiculturalism very much encourages separation of cultures within a host country. As a Canadian, I grew up having it beaten into my head that Canada was a ‘cultural mosaic’, where immigrants were encouraged to maintain their own cultures and values, whereas the inferior Americans were a ‘melting pot’ where people who immigrated were expected to put American values and cultural norms ahead of those of their old country. > > Thus in Canada you can be charged with a ‘hate crime’ for criticizing another culture, and there is a movement to allow parallel sharia law courts, and RCMP officers from the Sikh community can wear turbans instead of traditional RCMP headgear. In school here, great emphasis is placed on ‘diversity’ and on respecting other cultures equally and tolerating the existence of those cultures within the country. > > This works okay in Canada, because Canada is geographically isolated from most countries immigrants come from, and most immigrants here have a certain amount of education and the wherewithal to get here in the first place. We tend to get the best people from other countries. > > It isn’t working so well in Europe, where many of those countries are picking up the unemployed and uneducated people from other countries, then allowing them to exist within their borders as cultural outsiders so they remain unemployable and where they then become militant and demand that their own cultural norms be accommodated, even if they conflict with the cultural norms of the host country. This is creating a lot of tension - especially in the Netherlands where their ‘live and let live’ attitude has resulted in a large population of immigrants who are quite intolerant and opposed to the very values that allowed them to emigrate there in the first place. > > I always thought multiculturalism was nuts when carried out to the extreme of setting up exemptions to a country’s laws or tolerating cultural expression that conflicts with the norms of the country. If my country values the rights of women, then I don’t give a damn if some immigrants believe women should be subjugated. If you come to my country, you accept my rules. If you don’t like it, go home. I have no problem with you maintaining your own culture so long as it doesn’t conflict with the values of my country, but I expect you to be a Canadian first and respect Canadian law and Canadian cultural institutions. I think Sam Stone’s post above somewhat addresses **Chance** ’s question. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/82 "2011-06-24T05:57:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, it does according to wikipedia. > > [Western world - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_World) For some reason, [Samuel Huntington](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations) breaks out “Latin American” civilization for special treatment, even though “Western” civilization includes both Spain and Portugal (and the U.S. and Canada). ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/83 "2011-06-24T09:17:46Z")
The conspiracy theory of “political correctness”/“cultural Marxism”/multiculturalism should not be debated in this thread. The topic is whether the Dutch decision to abandon Multiculturalism is the right one. One could argue that they have embarked on a very dangerous path that could eventually lead to the rise of a new Führer in their neighboring country of Germany. Especially if you bear in mind that in the future, the United States will not be able to be the world police, because of America’s own economic problems and internal divisions. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/84 "2011-06-24T10:04:09Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > The conspiracy theory of “political correctness”/“cultural Marxism”/multiculturalism should not be debated in this thread. The topic is whether the Dutch decision to abandon Multiculturalism is the right one. One could argue that they have embarked on a very dangerous path that could eventually lead to the rise of a new Führer in their neighboring country of Germany. Especially if you bear in mind that in the future, the United States will not be able to be the world police, because of America’s own economic problems and internal divisions. You what?? Ah well, if you insist, all right then I’ll become the next Führer. But mind you, it might not be such a comfy ride as last time around. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/85 "2011-06-24T10:48:14Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > One could argue that they have embarked on a very dangerous path that could eventually lead to the rise of a new Führer in their neighboring country of Germany. Especially if you bear in mind that in the future, the United States will not be able to be the world police, because of America’s own economic problems and internal divisions. One could argue that, but one would find other people slowly edging away from one, because it shows no understanding at all of modern Europe. If Germany ends up taking over the rest of Europe it’ll be because it has foreclosed on it (they’ve practically bought Greece as it is). ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/86 "2011-06-24T10:48:33Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I thought it’s been several years since The Netherlands set forth a policy of encouraging immigrants to integrate into the prevailing Dutch culture, among other things requiring newcomers to learn Dutch, and advising them to stay away if they could not reconcile themselves to the free-ranging cultural environment of the country. Today’s statement seems to be little more than a reconfirming of that statement. This is more or less what I came in to say. The situation is quite a bit more nuanced than the OP implies. The “anti-multiculturalism” terminology is more an attempt to distinguish the current christian/right coalition from the centrist/secular “purple” cabinets of the 1990s, but in reality, many of the more effective changes towards stricter immigration/integration policies were implemented during the purple years. In my view it’s also intended to imply a stronger emphasis on “Christian values” by the Christian Democrats who are in a steady decline; there seems to be something of a strategy to cast their party in terms of defending “Church and village” from attack by both the secularists and the coalition supporting, vaguely pro-Christian, anti-Muslim PVV. IMO, this is not going to work for the Christian Democrats and the current cabinet might well turn out to be the last one with the CDA in it for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/87 "2011-06-24T11:57:25Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > The situation is quite a bit more nuanced than the OP implies. Has a Dutch government ever before relied on support from a xenophobic/racist party? Either you cooperate with them or you don’t. There can be no nuances in this. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/88 "2011-06-24T12:26:48Z")
It seems as though in this case they’re basically ending the promotion of multicultural principles, rather than, say, forcing everyone to wear clogs. But still, it’s part of a worrying trend. The banning of minarets and burkhas has been defended with similar arguments, but those measures really do impact on civil liberties. * * * For the sharia law thing, note that in many countries it is already possible for two parties to agree to arbitration by a mutual party, and as long as the cases are just minor civil disputes, the decisions are legally binding. That’s how shows like judge judy can get made. So sharia “courts” are already implicitly allowed in many countries, but some actually promote their use, as compared to real courts they’re a quick and cheap way of sorting out minor disputes. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/89 "2011-06-24T14:28:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Multiculturalism very much encourages separation of cultures within a host country. > … > I have no problem with you maintaining your own culture so long as it doesn’t conflict with the values of my country, but I expect you to be a Canadian first and respect Canadian law and Canadian cultural institutions. This one will be long :o In my saturated, perhaps narrow, 12 year immigrant to Canada view, I call this a very simplistic view. Also, I think, the label ‘multiculturalism’ was intended and encouraged by whoever promulgated it and kept it alive in a socio-cultural space of this country in last 30-40 years. There are, I think, two factors that are of importance when discussing immigrants in Canada. And while I’d agree that “quality” of immigrants is important it is not deciding element. First factor in Canadian approach is the formulation and practical application of its motto \* paix, ordre et bon gouvernement\* and application of its laws to EVERY SINGLE citizen (and not only for citizens but for future citizens - aka landed immigrants - and any other person that is physically here even if the process outcome is for the person to be deported). You simply don’t have that in ANY West European country as the entrenchment into land-is-nation-is-land ideology makes “natives” always more important than the rest, regardless and despite various degrees of “quality” of immigrants (e.g. in Germany just on the basis of your accent you get promptly looked down, ignored or worse; on the other hand I’ll never forget my 1st day in Canada in a convenience store on College street in Toronto where older gentleman with brisk English accent takes his time to explain directions to Kensington market to an older, south Asian lady who couldn’t connect two words of English). Second factor may sound American but is, ironically, of Dutch origin: “live and let live” where social requirements for normal functioning are set at the minimum including language (admittedly, Quebec is probably more like Europe in this sense) thus leaving the “cultural” space for people to be filled the way they please – weather it’s enjoying the “native” restaurant and discuss politics of the country they left behind or join in hockey game in progress). Live and let live is what then gives people option and nothing better in society than to choose your own form of social engagement. You can’t do that in Europe – for example, in Sweden they have a rule that you, as a refugee, MUST go to language school for 3 years because they think that none can do it sooner. But then you have, for example, my cousin who did it in a year and they let her apply for a job earlier contravening long standing rule – later on she proved them wrong by becoming 1st ever foreign born member of Swedish parliament. This example again confirms what I said about inability of Europe to distinguish that individuals in various groups coming to their country are all different thus confirming that any individual coming to Europe has to overcome quite a steep set of built-in racist policies to succeed. Please also note that I’m not here to say that Canadian society is perfect in every way – it’s just simply superior to European – the city I live is, according to census, 46 percent foreign born yet social order is maintained, crime is lowest for the city this size, and there is not a single ghetto subdivision. This has nothing to do with Canada being isolated or vast or not attractive to “losers” – it all has to do with social norms that any reasonable person who comes here cannot ignore and embraces as his or her own as they are indeed natural. Every time I hear some immigrant complaining about whatever all I tell them is to remember where they came from, remember their friends or relatives in Europe and resentment turns to quiet appreciation. In other words, they feel lucky. Otherwise, if you really cannot stand it here, in Canada, you can move to Moon or something… ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/90 "2011-06-24T14:38:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [Sharia Law in Canada, Almost](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/feb/08/sharialawincanadaalmost) > > BBC: [Will Sharia Come to Canada?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3599264.stm) That was a total and utter fiasco for McGuinty who then had to ban other 2 religions too. It was kinda funny to find out that other two religions had it going since 1991. but only when 3rd wanted it for itself then all went down crashing. Which is, overall, good thing. Another great public outcry that as a Canadian one has to be proud of was when John Tory, on his run for Ontario PM, wanted to fund private religious schools with taxpayers money. Did that send him to a dustbin of history aka radio talk show host or what? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/91 "2011-06-24T14:48:43Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > That was a total and utter fiasco for McGuinty who then had to ban other 2 religions too. It was kinda funny to find out that other two religions had it going since 1991. but only when 3rd wanted it for itself then all went down crashing. Which is, overall, good thing. > > Another great public outcry that as a Canadian one has to be proud of was when John Tory, on his run for Ontario PM, wanted to fund private religious schools with taxpayers money. Did that send him to a dustbin of history aka radio talk show host or what? However there already is religious schooling on the public purse through the Catholic school board. Tory’s extension to other religions was a logical progression _if_ you accept the existence of the Catholic boards. Faith based arbitration is still available in Ontario however - [Ministry of the Attorney General | ontario.ca](http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/arbitration/faith-based.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/92 "2011-06-24T15:10:18Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Has a Dutch government ever before relied on support from a xenophobic/racist party? Either you cooperate with them or you don’t. There can be no nuances in this. I can assure you we’re not shooting Arabs in the streets, so some semblance of civilization is still possible - racist/xenophobic support or no. I’m looking at the actual situation in the country that I live in, not making broad generalizations based on pure speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/93 "2011-06-24T15:19:12Z")
As Wilders’ party is supposedly funded by some large American-Jewish organisations, I would think that the racist xenophobes would _oppose_ the PVV. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/94 "2011-06-24T15:32:50Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > However there already is religious schooling on the public purse through the Catholic school board. Tory’s extension to other religions was a logical progression _if_ you accept the existence of the Catholic boards. My understanding is that existence of Catholic boards (or, Protestant) is a complicated fixture of a Canadian political landscape even enshrined into Constitution. On top of that funding is based on directly expressed preference for public or the other (the other being Protestant or Catholic). I think it is unwise and somewhat misplaced to argue that that is why other religions should receive same treatment. What I mean is that it may have been very important during BNA implementation when the country was taking shape but over time other things happened (Charter of Rights, overall improvement of democracy and civil society). Over time original issues lost its ferocity but it requires change in Constitution to actually change it so I presume that most people deal with it same as I do - it is what it is, there is no observable harm so try to make best of it. I personally prefer French Immersion school board 😃 I do also feel some pain for people who have to fund Public or Catholic SB and on top of that pay for their own religious private school but there’s less than 5% of them so really I don’t feel bad after all. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/95 "2011-06-24T16:32:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As a Western Cultural supremacist I rejoice at this news. Our civilization should aim for complete westernization of the world. Good thing nobody gives a shit what confused 14-year-old Jesus-fellating virgins think about adult issues. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/96 "2011-06-24T16:45:11Z")
Did anyone else notice that one of the articles quoted by the OP says the government will no longer help minorities assimilate and the others say the government will no longer help them maintain their own culture? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/97 "2011-06-24T16:58:17Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Good thing nobody gives a shit what confused 14-year-old Jesus-fellating virgins think about adult issues. Damn, thought this was the Pit. I retract this statement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/98 "2011-06-24T17:08:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Did anyone else notice that one of the articles quoted by the OP says the government will no longer help minorities assimilate and the others say the government will no longer help them maintain their own culture? 😕 The U.S. government never did much of either for immigrants, that I recall. What did the Netherlands used to do? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/99 "2011-06-24T17:09:07Z")
Who knows? Apparently they were doing lots and nothing all at once. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606/100 "2011-06-24T17:33:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [Sharia Law in Canada, Almost](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/feb/08/sharialawincanadaalmost) > > BBC: [Will Sharia Come to Canada?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3599264.stm) Same, you should know full well that the headlines here are highly deceptive. What was being suggested was that private arbitrators be allowed to decide cases based on sharia law if the applicants agreed to do so - an idea that woould never, ever have been controversial had any other religious group done it (and some have.) Why shouldn’t two private parties have the right to have a dispute arbitrated by the rules of their choice? Nobody has EVER seriously suggested Canada have a parallel system of Sharia law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-news-the-netherlands-to-abandon-multiculturalism/586606.md?page=6)