# Breaking: Student tasered multiple times at UCLA library **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703 "2006-11-16T17:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/241 "2006-11-17T18:35:10Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > There was also excessive force being used by cops. Now, it may be just me, but if I heard about a case involving a) mild stupidity by students and b) potentially excessive force from cops, I think i’d be more concerned about the latter rather than the former. Like I said, could just be me. OK. Take another deep breath, RT, and try to follow. There are \>230 posts about the potentially excessive force from the cops here. Including a post by me which is not very supportive of the officers. There is one post about the silliness of college students who think they know everything. OK, now here comes the difficult part, so put your thinking cap on. _Just because somebody makes one post about the silly college students, does not mean that person is not **also** concerned with the potential excessive force._ Ya see? I can be concerned about the excessive force, as my prior post shows, and **still** think that college students are silly. And me thinking college students are silly does not mean that I think police brutality is OK. Those are not mutually exclusive views. Understand? I know it’s difficult, maybe there is someone nearby with higher than a room-temperature IQ that could draw you a picture. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/242 "2006-11-17T18:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I’m sorry. I didn’t realise you’d already commented; it seemed to me (with my memory of a goldfish) that you’d only just heard about it and those were your immediate thoughts. I should insert a “potentially” in there, or maybe a “as I see it”, you’re right. I’ve been pretty careful about doing that, though, so i’ll ask you to forgive a momentary lapse. [/QUOTE] I’ll forgive your momentary lapse, if you’ll forgive my failure to preview, which if I had, I would have trashed my last post. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/243 "2006-11-17T18:40:39Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Why not? You seem interested enough in this situation. Even if you don’t think there’s anything to be learnt from it, it’s only a few minutes long. [/quote] Because I’m at work, meathead — I said so in my very first post. I couldn’t watch the video from here if I wanted to. > [@](#): > > If the cops acted entirely properly with regards to their guidelines, then we’ve established that the guidelines may be pretty disturbing. And in either case, we need to establish rules which aren’t disturbing. The 4-cops-per-suspect rule doesn’t fit that bill, and yet everybody keeps crowing “just drag the guy out!” as if 3 cops _always_ respond to every call. > [@](#): > > I believe you. You’ve shown that suspects can injure cops or themselves whilst actively resisting arrest. Anything along the lines of injuries caused to either when the suspect is already cuffed with his hands behind him, and limply non-cooperating? I don’t get the police report, just the radiology report. I get no specifics on the incident. > [@](#): > > How was this guy being subdued? He was on the floor! Cuffed! Not moving! Not. Commenting. On. The. Video. I live in America, and I can’t believe Americans seem to be suggesting that the solution is _more cops._ Nobody has said this outright, no, but they keep saying “well, just drag him out” as if that’s the ideal solution for all suspects and all situations. > [@](#): > > I can’t help get the feeling that in your head there’s an imaginary video in which this guy is lashing out, attacking cops before they have to taser him into submission and cuff him; him then viciously continuing to thrash against the cop’s control whilst shouting obscenities. Watch the video, please. I can’t. Besides, what’s the point? Guidelines or no guidelines, you’ve made up your mind that you don’t like what the video shows. You’re stuck in the moment of blame: punish the cops if they’re wrong, or change the rules so the cops _are_ wrong. I’ve moved past that to, “What should the rules be, then?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/244 "2006-11-17T18:54:18Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] And in either case, we need to establish rules which aren’t disturbing. The 4-cops-per-suspect rule doesn’t fit that bill, and yet everybody keeps crowing “just drag the guy out!” as if 3 cops _always_ respond to every call." [/QUOTE] You’re being deliberately obtuse. We’re not talking about _every_ call, we’re talking about THIS one, and there were three or more officers present. Obviously if there was one officer present we wouldn’t be saying, “hey, just drag the guy out”. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/245 "2006-11-17T18:54:26Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] Because I’m at work, meathead — I said so in my very first post. I couldn’t watch the video from here if I wanted to. [/quote] I’m sorry; it’s evening here, so my automatic reaction was “they’re home now, and they haven’t watched it but rushed to talk about it anyway?”. I blame time zones. 😉 > [@](#): > > And in either case, we need to establish rules which aren’t disturbing. The 4-cops-per-suspect rule doesn’t fit that bill, and yet everybody keeps crowing “just drag the guy out!” as if 3 cops _always_ respond to every call. Not so. I’m saying guidelines should be changed so that _if three cops do show up_, tasers shouldn’t be used. If this case had gone exactly as it had but only 1 cop turned up, I doubt my argument would be the same. > [@](#): > > I don’t get the police report, just the radiology report. I get no specifics on the incident. Then how do you know how many are cases of passive resistance and how many are cases where the suspect went berserk? > [@](#): > > Not. Commenting. On. The. Video. > > I live in America, and I can’t believe Americans seem to be suggesting that the solution is _more cops._ Nobody has said this outright, no, but they keep saying “well, just drag him out” as if that’s the ideal solution for all suspects and all situations. Well, i’m a Brit, and i’m not suggesting that. There WERE more cops there, in this case. If there had been less cops, it would be different. But there were not. In this case, three cops turned up. The guidelines should say if enough cops are there to drag a suspect out, then they shouldn’t resort to pointless tasering. If there aren’t, then it should be up to the cop. No new cops needed. Happy? > [@](#): > > I can’t. Besides, what’s the point? Guidelines or no guidelines, you’ve made up your mind that you don’t like what the video shows. You’re stuck in the moment of blame: punish the cops if they’re wrong, or change the rules so the cops _are_ wrong. I’ve moved past that to, “What should the rules be, then?” If they change the rules after the fact, it wouldn’t make the cops wrong. Guidelines aren’t retrospective. So i’ve offered you my suggested change; if enough cops are there to drag a suspect out when the suspect is passively resisting and does not appear a threat, then tasering should not be an option. Does that seem reasonable to you? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/246 "2006-11-17T18:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] You’re being deliberately obtuse. We’re not talking about _every_ call, we’re talking about THIS one, and there were three or more officers present. Obviously if there was one officer present we wouldn’t be saying, “hey, just drag the guy out”. [/QUOTE] Okay, let’s pretend I just watched the video and I’m just as outraged as you. Damn, shit, pigfucker cops, vive la revolucion, etc. What should the rules be? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/247 "2006-11-17T19:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Then how do you know how many are cases of passive resistance and how many are cases where the suspect went berserk? [/quote] I don’t, and never said I did. All I’m saying is that injuries are common when police attempt to subdue a suspect physically. > [@](#): > > The guidelines should say if enough cops are there to drag a suspect out, then they shouldn’t resort to pointless tasering. If there aren’t, then it should be up to the cop. No new cops needed. 1. What if the suspect is inciting a large crowd to participate? 2. How many cops is “enough?” We’ve heard from **Lissa** , I believe, that 4 is standard. Here there were evidently 3, and this thread suggests they struggled to control a suspect who was not actively resisting. 3. What is a “pointless tasering?” You later suggest that TASER shouldn’t even be an option. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/248 "2006-11-17T19:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] I don’t, and never said I did. All I’m saying is that injuries are common when police attempt to subdue a suspect physically. [/quote] But that’s not specific enough to be of much use here. I mean, technically I could say that injuries are common when playing ice hockey; is that grounds to eliminate penalty shots? No, because while a game might be pretty rough, the particular case of a penalty shoot is likely to be much less so. > [@](#): > > 1. What if the suspect is inciting a large crowd to participate? Participate in attacking police? That might even be grounds to draw a baton or gun, depending on how large and how violent the crowd is. Participate in passive resistance? Nope, doesn’t strike me as grounds. > [@](#): > > 1. How many cops is “enough?” We’ve heard from **Lissa** , I believe, that 4 is standard. Here there were evidently 3, and this thread suggests they struggled to control a suspect who was not actively resisting. What suggests they struggled to control him? They certainly didn’t have his cooperation, if that’s what you mean. But he was still fully in their control; he was cuffed, he wasn’t attacking them, he wasn’t attached to any part of the library, he didn’t have friends hanging onto him. > [@](#): > > 1. What is a “pointless tasering?” You later suggest that TASER shouldn’t even be an option. “Pointless tasering” in this case would refer to the fact that they tasered him in order to gain his compliance when they did not need his compliance. In addition, the tasering failed in gaining his compliance. What about the tasering being pointless means that it should be acceptable? I don’t see where you’re going with that last part, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/249 "2006-11-17T19:32:54Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Participate in attacking police? That might even be grounds to draw a baton or gun, depending on how large and how violent the crowd is. Participate in passive resistance? Nope, doesn’t strike me as grounds. [/quote] I’m sorry, but as I haven’t seen the video, I can only go by how the crowd’s behavior has been characterized here — and getting into a cop’s face while he’s trying to subdue a suspect doesn’t sound “passive.” The gray areas here are phenomenally wide, and simple definitions don’t apply. The police have to have _some_ latitude to make decisions, and know when a crowd is on the edge of breaking into a mob. > [@](#): > > What suggests they struggled to control him? Well, the fact that they didn’t just “pick up him and drag him out” in 20 seconds, the ideal which people keep repeating, suggests that. > [@](#): > > What about the tasering being pointless means that it should be acceptable? I don’t see where you’re going with that last part, sorry. You added the word “pointless” to TASERing, which suggested sometimes TASERing had a point. I wanted to know what that point would have been, the exception proves the rule and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/250 "2006-11-17T19:34:51Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. What if the suspect is inciting a large crowd to participate? Actually, it is clear that in this case it was the continued tasering of the suspect that incited the crowd to participate. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/251 "2006-11-17T19:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > The police have to have some latitude to make decisions, and know when a crowd is on the edge of breaking into a mob. I have been involved in arresting a number of people in the middle of crowds where the crowd is very sympathetic to the suspect and is borderline interfering. Take my word for it, tasering a guy who is handcuffed and lying on the ground is not the way to win the crowd over to your side. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/252 "2006-11-17T19:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] I’m sorry, but as I haven’t seen the video, I can only go by how the crowd’s behavior has been characterized here — and getting into a cop’s face while he’s trying to subdue a suspect doesn’t sound “passive.” [/quote] If you’re willing to take my word on it, no students got in the cop’s face while he was subduing the suspect - or at any time. If you think I may be biased, feel free to wait until you get an opportunity to watch the video yourself. > [@](#): > > The gray areas here are phenomenally wide, and simple definitions don’t apply. The police have to have _some_ latitude to make decisions, and know when a crowd is on the edge of breaking into a mob. And as i’ve said, if a crowd is on the verge of breaking into a mob, that\* might \* even be an appropriate time to draw a baton or gun. Nice of me to leave open some latitude there, wasn’t it? > [@](#): > > Well, the fact that they didn’t just “pick up him and drag him out” in 20 seconds, the ideal which people keep repeating, suggests that. Or, it suggests that the cops made a bad decision. > [@](#): > > You added the word “pointless” to TASERing, which suggested sometimes TASERing had a point. I wanted to know what that point would have been, the exception proves the rule and so on. Of course tasering can have a point; I imagine it’s useful for incapacitate an attacker. It’s probably also useful in subduing a struggling, angry suspect. I’ve already said there are situations in which a taser is a useful and reasonable response to a situation; this does not appear to be such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/253 "2006-11-17T19:59:42Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] I have been involved in arresting a number of people in the middle of crowds where the crowd is very sympathetic to the suspect and is borderline interfering. Take my word for it, tasering a guy who is handcuffed and lying on the ground is not the way to win the crowd over to your side. [/QUOTE] This is another problem for me. Had the police not used the TASER and simply cuffed the suspect and dragged him out or whatever, there would be no angry students or the “threat” of mob violence. The student isn’t exactly not culpabable in the situation, but the cops certainly escalated the incident, and they simply didn’t have to. You know, and I’m sick of hearing this condescending “Aren’t college students so goshdarn _cute_ with their civil rights” bullshit. At least somebody has some goddamned idealism in this jaded society of ours. Helps keep the balance and all. Simply put-\> Student wrong for being a dick. Cops wrong for escalating a situation which did not need to be escalated. Is what they did criminal or otherwise illegal? I don’t know. Probably not. But it sure was stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/254 "2006-11-17T20:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] I have been involved in arresting a number of people in the middle of crowds where the crowd is very sympathetic to the suspect and is borderline interfering. Take my word for it, tasering a guy who is handcuffed and lying on the ground is not the way to win the crowd over to your side. [/QUOTE] How does the crowd respond to bodily grabbing such a suspect, putting him in an armlock, and dragging him away? I can’t imagine it’s much of an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/255 "2006-11-17T20:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] How does the crowd respond to bodily grabbing such a suspect, putting him in an armlock, and dragging him away? I can’t imagine it’s much of an improvement. [/QUOTE] I do. I see this with bouncers all the time. If I saw somebody getting bounced from a club tased, I imagine I would be _quite_ a bit more putoff by it. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/256 "2006-11-17T20:46:38Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] I do. I see this with bouncers all the time. If I saw somebody getting bounced from a club tased, I imagine I would be _quite_ a bit more putoff by it. [/QUOTE] The view that dragging people around and wrestling with them is someone ideal to use of the Taser stems from their massive ignorance of the device. If people would take a step back and actually read about it a little bit, they would see it for what it is. People fear it because they dont understand it and are not used to it. This is primarily what causes the public to freak out and yell ‘brutality’ when they see it used in a way they dont understand. You’re right, they probably would not have been so freaked out if the cops dragged him around. But that doesn’t mean their _right_. They obviously dont understand the situation and don’t have all the facts. I think if I would have taken a different approach in this thread, I would have been more convincing. But it was the pit–not Great Debates–so I didn’t expect I would need to. Bottom line is that those of you who believe this was severe brutality, abuse, or torture, do so because you think the Taser is something that it’s not. We shouldn’t be arguing policy or civil rights, we should be discussing the Taser itself. Because if you truly understood the thing, you wouldn’t be reacting the way you are. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/257 "2006-11-17T20:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] I do. I see this with bouncers all the time. If I saw somebody getting bounced from a club tased, I imagine I would be _quite_ a bit more putoff by it. [/QUOTE] We’re not talking about one-on-one, **a** bouncer versus **a** person. Get 3-4 boys in blue wrapping up a suspect, each taking an arm or a leg, I’m not sure the crowd would be pleased. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/258 "2006-11-17T21:01:07Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] We’re not talking about one-on-one, **a** bouncer versus **a** person. Get 3-4 boys in blue wrapping up a suspect, each taking an arm or a leg, I’m not sure the crowd would be pleased. [/QUOTE] Less pleased than tasering him? Even if it causes no lasting injury, it sounds a lot more painful than getting the bum’s rush, and is more likely to engender sympathy from the crowd. If these videos continue surfacing, it is only a matter of time until some cop gets hurt by an enraged crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/259 "2006-11-17T21:01:41Z")
You know, **Bear\_Nenno** is right. I was labouring under the false impression that a taser caused pain; I see now how silly that was of me! Thanks, **B\_N** , for dispelling my ignorance! ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/260 "2006-11-17T21:06:09Z")
I’d just like to add that I frequently have to pickup and carry people as part of my job. It is not easy at all. Patients in cardiac arrest or otherwise incapacitated (I.E. dead weight) are a bitch to carry for any distance, even with 3-4 people. Those who actively resist me (psychotic or drunk patients in most cases) usually get tackled and tied down to my bed. It easily takes 4-6 of us to pull this off, and we cannot carry that person for any real distance, we bring the bed to them. I also carry drugs to knock these patients out if we cannot restrain them, or they continue to pose a threat to themselves or others when restrained. What I’m trying to say is picking someone up and carrying them out is at best hard, and at worse damn near impossible. Factor in the injury potential for both the patient and the responders (more EMS personnel loose their jobs to back injuries than any other) and I’m not terribly keen at carrying anyone I don’t have to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703.md?page=14)