# Breaking: Student tasered multiple times at UCLA library **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703 "2006-11-16T17:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/261 "2006-11-17T21:14:05Z")
Okay, the guy is cuffed and won’t get up. Now, how much effort must the police use to protect him? Do they have to injure their backs? Sprain their wrists? Can they just loop a belt through his cuffs and drag him away? Do they have to call an ambulance and use a gurney and give him drugs to prevent him getting all excited or injured in any way? If they pick him up and are walking down the steps and he starts to struggle, how many of them have to fall and make a safe place for him to land so he won’t be hurt? He is up and walking and you see him jerk away and then fall all on his own. You will of course volunteer to go to court and publicly stand up for it not being the cops fault and will help fight the lawyer that says they should have tasered him so that he would not have thought to break away? Right? What are the actual guidelines you will be happy with? I still think that since they are just all good kids that there should be no police of any kind allowed on a college campus. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/262 "2006-11-17T21:15:50Z")
[QUOTE=GusNSpot] I still think that since they are just all good kids that there should be no police of any kind allowed on a college campus. [/QUOTE] “Just all good kids”? I’m a college student myself; I certainly wouldn’t say we’re “all good kids”. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/263 "2006-11-17T21:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Less pleased than tasering him?. [/QUOTE] I don’t know — that’s why I’m asking **Don’t Call Me Shirley** , as we appear to have a law enforcement officer here. I mean, other things being equal, and you can’t get the crowd on your side no matter what the situation, I’d think you’d pick the _safer_ one, less prone to injuring yourself or the suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/264 "2006-11-17T21:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=GusNSpot] What are the actual guidelines you will be happy with? [/QUOTE] Are you aware the taser did not result in avoiding any of the risks you cited? Even after they tortured him, they still had to haul is ass out of the building. What was gained, except their own entertainment? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/265 "2006-11-17T21:22:39Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] I don’t know — that’s why I’m asking **Don’t Call Me Shirley** , as we appear to have a law enforcement officer here. [/QUOTE] I don’t see how a cop’s opinion is more informed than mine on how a crowd will react to hearing a guy screaming in pain. > [@](#): > > I mean, other things being equal, and you can’t get the crowd on your side no matter what the situation, I’d think you’d pick the _safer_ one, less prone to injuring yourself or the suspect. I would think you would choose the one least likely to trigger a riot. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/266 "2006-11-17T21:25:41Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] The view that dragging people around and wrestling with them is someone ideal to use of the Taser stems from their massive ignorance of the device. If people would take a step back and actually read about it a little bit, they would see it for what it is. People fear it because they dont understand it and are not used to it. This is primarily what causes the public to freak out and yell ‘brutality’ when they see it used in a way they dont understand. You’re right, they probably would not have been so freaked out if the cops dragged him around. But that doesn’t mean their _right_. They obviously dont understand the situation and don’t have all the facts. [/QUOTE] I am not disagreeing with you. I’m convinced that tasering probably is safer than dragging a guy out. But I think the emotional response a crowd may have to seeing someone jolted with electricity should be something considered by any reasonable person trying to control such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/267 "2006-11-17T21:27:36Z")
You don’t see how somebody’s _actual, on-the-job eyewitness reporting of real events_ is more relevant? Sheesh. Maybe it was you who _wrote_ the policies we have now. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/268 "2006-11-17T21:27:39Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] We’re not talking about one-on-one, **a** bouncer versus **a** person. Get 3-4 boys in blue wrapping up a suspect, each taking an arm or a leg, I’m not sure the crowd would be pleased. [/QUOTE] I don’t think this would be making the rounds on YouTube if that happened. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/269 "2006-11-17T21:31:01Z")
I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, but has anyone addressed what crime was committed here? The only possibility I see might be trespass, but I think the case for that is pretty thin. From the info. provided it looks like a case of overeaction and overkill. I’m also very troubled, but not surprised, that people who are apparently LEO’s, or former LEO’s are so cavalier in accepting the use of a taser/stun gun. There are simple techniques, using leverage and temporary, harmless, pain, to get a subject to comply in moving as required. It is very clear to me that LEO’s across this country need to be retrained in the lawful use of force, especially lethal force, and LE departments need to rewrite their policies on the permitted use of such force. The use of unnecessary force is a crime and hiding behind a badge doesn’t exempt someone from prosecution. Here, locally, in the past few weeks, we’ve had a man die from injuries inflicted during apprehension, and two mentally disturbed men, holding knives, who were shot to death. An autopsy on the first man showed that he had over 25 broken bones, including at least 9 ribs. He was first taken to the jail, where they refused to accept him and finally to a hospital where he died, or was pronounced dead, I’m not sure which. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/270 "2006-11-17T21:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] You know, **Bear\_Nenno** is right. I was labouring under the false impression that a taser caused pain; I see now how silly that was of me! Thanks, **B\_N** , for dispelling my ignorance! [/QUOTE] I guess some assholes refuse to fucking learn anything. What’s the point of discussing anything with you if you just _know_ how right you are. Whatever. I guess cops should never do anything that might discomfort a resisting suspect. My fucking god. Anyone who is capable of being informed has already had the benefit of real information in this thread. All others like yourself will never open up your eyes enough to see anything else but what you _believe_ already. So there’s no point in even continuing a conversation with you. What is it with people being so fucking paranoid and scared of everything that has any hint of authority? I’m sorry you read some book written 60 years ago about some city 20 years ago. It was fucking fiction. There is no Big Brother. There is no great conspiracy. Cops aren’t automatically bad because they have authority. I’m glad I dont live in your fucking crybaby world. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/271 "2006-11-17T21:37:03Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] You don’t see how somebody’s _actual, on-the-job eyewitness reporting of real events_ is more relevant? Sheesh. Maybe it was you who _wrote_ the policies we have now. [/QUOTE] An eyewitness will report the situation skewed to their own biases. If both **Bear\_Nenno** and **Scoundrel Swanswater** were on hand to report this, we’d likely have two wildly divergent views. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/272 "2006-11-17T21:38:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] What’s the point of discussing anything with you if you just _know_ how right you are. Whatever. [/QUOTE] I’m with you on this one. The line has been drawn and sides have been taken. I don’t see anyone being talked out of their beliefs. I’m done with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/273 "2006-11-17T21:42:27Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] I am not disagreeing with you. I’m convinced that tasering probably is safer than dragging a guy out. But I think the emotional response a crowd may have to seeing someone jolted with electricity should be something considered by any reasonable person trying to control such a situation. [/QUOTE] I will definitely agree with that. But I will add that limelighted incidents like this should be used to dispell the ignorance and shed a little light on this new thing cops in virtually every US Department are carrying. Isn’t that the whole point of this message board? People know nothing about it now, except what they perceive. And most of them are already overwhelmed by their propensity to fear authority. Give it about 10 years. After people become accustomed to the Taser and understand it, the irrational emotional response caused by this frightning new technology will fade away. Before someone else says it, I’ll say it: > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > After people become accustomed to the Taser and understand it, the irrational emotional response caused by this frightning new technology will not be present. OMG!! Accustomed? Like the Jews had to grow accustomed to torture and Gas Chambers? Are you fucking serious!! You elitest totalitarian asshole!! Why dont you believe in civil rights? Why do you think citizens should have to be accustomed to such a monster weapon??? We need to resist! We should spread ignorance about how its a torture device so that we can finally rid officers of this devastating electrocution machine. We must protest and bitch and complain until every department gets rid of them! We have know idea what the true benefits to the safety or the public is. We are scared because we think they are going to malisciously torture us with it just to get a hard-on. The Resistance Lives On!!! ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/274 "2006-11-17T21:43:23Z")
[QUOTE=kinoons] \ Those who actively resist me (psychotic or drunk patients in most cases) usually get tackled and tied down to my bed. It easily takes 4-6 of us to pull this off, and we cannot carry that person for any real distance, we bring the bed to them.\ [/QUOTE] Kinky. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/275 "2006-11-17T21:48:24Z")
That’s how I roll, baby ---
**Author:** ![Thalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@Thalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thalion)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/276 "2006-11-17T21:48:51Z")
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater] No, I haven’t. [/QUOTE] OK, then you’re just an idiot. To say, “I would rather have a billyclub to the head then get tasered.” shows such an incredible lack of intelligence that I am truly stunned (no pun intended). A Taser HURTS - that’s it. It doesn’t break bones, crush joints, rupture blood vessels or cause a concussion. That’s the whole point of the thing and why we use them. They cause pain, but no actual damage. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/277 "2006-11-17T21:49:41Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] I guess some assholes refuse to fucking learn anything. What’s the point of discussing anything with you if you just _know_ how right you are. Whatever. [/quote] Ladies and gentlemen, I give you irony. > [@](#): > > I guess cops should never do anything that might discomfort a resisting suspect. My fucking god. Anyone who is capable of being informed has already had the benefit of real information in this thread. All others like yourself will never open up your eyes enough to see anything else but what you _believe_ already. So there’s no point in even continuing a conversation with you. Yes, you’re right. I’ve said repeatedly, over and over again, that cops have no right to discomfort anyone. Why, look at all these times i’ve denied a cop should be able to use force; **Post #8** ; [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] If he’s throwing punches, or struggling to try and attack the officers, then sure, tase him. [/QUOTE] **Post #115** ; [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] [QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] I would almost agree if the officer never gave a warning first. If an officer says “Cease this action or you will be Sprayed/Tasered” and you say “Fuck Off”, then it’s not excessive force. You were warned that the officer was within his/her rights. And you were given the option to obey or disobey a lawful command. If you choose option B, that’s your fault. And a country that allows people to later seek payment for grievance is not dangerously approaching a police state. If a cop tells you, “Leave here or you will be Tasered” and you think they dont have the authority, then leave and file a complaint. [/QUOTE] I would agree with all that, assuming that dragging was somehow completely not an option. [/QUOTE] **Post #179** ; [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] [QUOTE=Walter Windchill] I repeat the question to those who are upset by this show of force. What would you have done? “Nothing,” is not an acceptable answer. You have to get this guy out of the library and he refuses to cooperate. We know what is unacceptable – the use of “excessive” force – but what would be an acceptable means to achieve your goal of removing the person from the premises? I’m really curious what you would do. [/QUOTE] Arrest him, read him his rights, drag him out of there. [/QUOTE] **Post 210** ; [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] It’s not the tool; it’s the way it’s being used. As a means to incapacitate an attacker? Great! Excellent use of it. I applaud it. [/QUOTE] **Post 220** : [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] And i’m sure a guy that’s cuffed can still be a menace, if he’s struggling; if it turns out later this guy was struggling and actively being threatening, then i’m happy to say using the taser was ok. [/QUOTE] **Post 225** ; [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] [QUOTE=Loach] I just had to comment on something that was on one of the first post. Something about the ACLU being quoted as saying tasers should be used only in deadly force situations. That is ridiculous. If it is a deadly force situation I am using .45 caliber hollow points. Several of them. Hopefully I’ll never have to. [/QUOTE] And that’s also perfectly reasonable; an unfortunate situation, no doubt, but reasonable. [/QUOTE] **Post 245** ; [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] The guidelines should say if enough cops are there to drag a suspect out, then they shouldn’t resort to pointless tasering. If there aren’t, then it should be up to the cop. [/QUOTE] Need I go on? > [@](#): > > What is it with people being so fucking paranoid and scared of everything that has any hint of authority? I’m sorry you read some book written 60 years ago about some city 20 years ago. It was fucking fiction. There is no Big Brother. There is no great conspiracy. Cops aren’t automatically bad because they have authority. I’ll make a deal with you. Please; point out to me where I said I hate authority. Please, point out to me one, just one fucking instance where i’ve said cops are all bad, or authority is bad. Find one. If you find one, i’ll admit i’m wrong and bow out of the thread. If you can’t, then you admit you’re full of shit. Deal? > [@](#): > > I’m glad I dont live in your fucking crybaby world. Well, you certainly seem to be enjoying the world of huge fucking strawmen enough. Feel free to continue to live in your imagination; i’m sure it’s quite pleasant there. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/278 "2006-11-17T21:50:04Z")
Bear, you haven’t made any real arguments or dispelled ignorance. You’ve just pulled out your dick, waved it around, and chuckled. Big whoop. Maybe try the Freeper boards next time. ---
**Author:** ![Thalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@Thalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thalion)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/279 "2006-11-17T22:00:00Z")
In this thread, I’ve just talked about the Taser (myself and **Bear\_Nenno** apparently being the only people who actually know anything about the devices) and haven’t addressed the actual incident. Personally, I would have done exactly what those officers did _up to a point_. He was told to leave, he refused, they ordered him to leave, he started to walk then objected to being touched and decided to sit down and stop moving. At that point, I would have taken the time to talk to him to get him to comply. I’ve found it works a lot better and is a whole lot less work than fighting someone. If that didn’t work, I wouldn’t use the Taser for pain compliance because my department doesn’t permit it to be used that way. I would have used a pressure point to try to get him to comply. The _last resort_ would be to drag him out. Like I said, that just leads to injuries far too often. Oh, for what it’s worth, I’ve been a cop for 20 years. I’ve never hit anyone with a baton in that time, I’ve pepper sprayed one guy, and I’ve never used my Taser. But I wouldn’t hesitate to do so just because an uninformed public thinks of these as “torture devices” that should only be used on the most violent of offenders. That’s just ignorant of the device and of how things work in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703/280 "2006-11-17T22:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=A.R. Cane] I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, but has anyone addressed what crime was committed here? The only possibility I see might be trespass, but I think the case for that is pretty thin. [/quote] The original crime was trespass. But the case for trespass is always pretty thin. For it to hold up in court there has to be Written Warning on file, or the officers have to witness the whole refusale and instruction to leave and various other limitations. Anyway, it’s pretty weak. Had he not flipped out, he probably would have just been escorted out a maybe have him sign a Trespass Warning. I dunno, it’s gotta be different for Campus Police. They have a little more authority than normal situation, because they have personal authority over the building on the Campus. It’s like you’re in their house. If they say “leave”, you have to leave. Whereas, if a store calls the cops, the cops have to hear the store owner say “leave” and observe you refuse… anyway, lets just say the trespass was weak but enough to warrant law enforcement intervention. When the Security asked him to leave, and he refused, he committed a crime. Pretty minor, but stupid on his part. The big one, and the one that will stick, is the “Resisting an Officer”. All the arguing and refusing to put his feet down to walk and making them carry him and all that crying and yelling is definitely resisting an officer and it will stick. He can scream “I said I would leave”, all he wants. That doesn’t mean he’s complying. Does anyone really believe he’s trying to leave? > [@](#): > > From the info. provided it looks like a case of overeaction and overkill. > I’m also very troubled, but not surprised, that people who are apparently LEO’s, or former LEO’s are so cavalier in accepting the use of a taser/stun gun. There are simple techniques, using leverage and temporary, harmless, pain, to get a subject to comply in moving as required. It’s already been mentioned. The Drive Stun with a Taser fall BELOW all those things you just mentioned on the Force Spectrum. And ironic you say “There are simple techniques, using leverage and temporary, harmless, pain, to get a subject to comply in moving as required” because the Drive Stun is just such a technique. > [@](#): > > It is very clear to me that LEO’s across this country need to be retrained in the lawful use of force, NO. It is very clear that the PUBLIC needs to be educated on such things. > [@](#): > > The use of unnecessary force is a crime and hiding behind a badge doesn’t exempt someone from prosecution. Absolutely agree. 100%!! > [@](#): > > Here, locally, in the past few weeks, we’ve had a man die from injuries inflicted during apprehension, and two mentally disturbed men, holding knives, who were shot to death. An autopsy on the first man showed that he had over 25 broken bones, including at least 9 ribs. He was first taken to the jail, where they refused to accept him and finally to a hospital where he died, or was pronounced dead, I’m not sure which. Too bad he wasn’t Tasered. It would have prevented this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breaking-student-tasered-multiple-times-at-ucla-library/380703.md?page=15)