Breaking: Student tasered multiple times at UCLA library

[Revenant_Threshold]

[QUOTE=Zebra]
Banks get robbed, all the time.

The beating up black dudes thing, umm, not really following you there, but it sounds like you are calling me a racist. Which you had better fucking explain in your next post to me.
[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t, at all. I’m sorry that I phrased that badly.

My point with those two, which in retrospect was a very bad way to put it, is that you can justify a lot of things by blaming the victim. If a bank gets robbed, is it the victim’s fault for putting their money there? If a person is beaten because of their skin colour or religion or whatever, is it their fault for being who they are?

I’d hope you’d say no. Of course, the difference in this case is that the victim was also a perpetrator. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean you can justify crime against them. If someone steals from me, and I hit him, i’ve still comitted a crime, even though i’m the victim.

If a person is struggling, even if in restraints, it is risky for *all involved * to simply carry him out of the building.

I believe he wasn’t struggling, though. I don’t see any struggling (apart from when he gets tasered, which is involuntary). I see him limp when he is visible. And I believe the witnesses who say he didn’t struggle. If i’m wrong, i’ll revise my argument.

The fact that he was inciting a riot, maybe you should address that issue next. One shove from the back of the crowd could have sent a person stumbling into the officers. That could escalted the entire incident to really huge fucking deal. The incident as it stands now, no big deal.

If he was indeed not struggling, then his incitement to join in would mean he was inciting others to a sit-in, not a riot.

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
Allow me to rephrase:
An officer acting in the lawful performance of his duties is not a vigilante.
If this thread is about abusive cops acting outside of establish policy, then lets see some cites. These cops acted accordingly.
It seems to me that the issue should be about Department Policy and the use of Tasers nationwide. All the cites here about how dangerous the Taser is really isn’t relevant to the actions of these officers. They don’t decide policy. Dont get pissed off at the cops because the department’s lawyers are convinced the Taser is a safe effective tool
[/QUOTE]
As i’ve said, if the cop’s actions were fully within the guidelines for this situation, then they were acting perfectly properly in legal terms. I doubt that they were within such guidelines, since tasering a non-violent suspect doesn’t strike me as something that would be passed as law. If i’m wrong on that too, then it’s the law that is incorrect, though that would be purely MHO.

No. The community service the kid gets later or the fines or whatever. That’s the punishment.

That would be another punishment, the just punishment, not the only punishment. Please, tell me how tasering a non-violent suspect for not obeying police orders is not immediate punishment?

It was a library. Am I wrong to assume that before this hippy started making a huge scene it was quiet and peaceful?

You’re exactly right; as soon as he started being uncooperative, it became a scene.

Oh, and hippy? :dubious: Methinks someone’s letting their prejudices get the better of them.

This is where we branch off. It’s the officers’ conformity to SOP. I think they were within established guidelines. Certainly near the edge, but still within regs. If the department later says otherwise, then I’m wrong.

Fair enough. If the department says they were within regs, I withdraw my criticism of the cops.

This kid wasn’t making rational decisions before getting tasered. He was acting like a self-righteous attention whore. “Patriot Act” indeed.

Again, i’m not arguing he wasn’t an idiot.

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Question-I couldn’t see anything for most of it other than a crowd of students and some study kerrels. But am I the only one who heard him repeatedly screaming, “I AM NOT LEAVING!”
[/QUOTE]
I hear “I SAID I WOULD LEAVE!!”.

[Ethilrist]

[QUOTE=Fish]
I can’t watch the video from work, so I don’t know how far this kid went in trying to incite other students to riot and resist the cops for his own stupid mistake, or whether or not this particular incident was justified. I can’t say yet.
[/QUOTE]

He called out a couple times for people to help him; some doof was yelling at the cops that he wanted their badge numbers (five or six times); a couple guys took a few steps forward from the pack when the guy got tasered the second or third time; after the last time, in the last ten seconds of the video, a guy started walking towards the action and was told to back off or he’d get tasered, too.

[Jayrot]

Once and for all, to all the people trying to pull the “cops have more important things to do elsewhere”:

There were (at least) 3 cops present. The quickest and easiest way to resolve the situation is to cuff the guy and drag him out of the library and to the squadcar or whatever holding tank they use.

The quickest and most efficient resolution is NOT to taser him to the ground and then repeatedly taser him while on the ground building a scene. Unless he’s fighting back or actively resisting.

[Apos]

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
It’s a fine line. On the one hand, it’s part of a police officer’s job to give assholes who need it a good tasering now and then to keep them on their toes.
[/QUOTE]

What the fuck is wrong you/many Americans? Since when did causing people brain-scattering pain become an issue of such blase indifference?

The guy was being a dick, but he was no threat to anyone. They brought in electroshock. That’s a way ridiculous escalation of violence. Half the point of tasers is that they are supposed to provide a non-lethal alternative to using a firearm. Not so that cops can now feel free to shoot non-violent people willy nilly to “keep them on their toes.”

[Fish]

[QUOTE=Jayrot]
Once and for all, to all the people trying to pull the “cops have more important things to do elsewhere”:
[/quote]

Hand-waving is not the answer. There are finite number of police officers and I asked a valid question.

There were (at least) 3 cops present. The quickest and easiest way to resolve the situation is to cuff the guy and drag him out of the library and to the squadcar or whatever holding tank they use.

This is a policy that will lead to having 3/4 of the adult population of the U.S.A. serving as police officers so cops always outnumber suspects 3:1.

[Jayrot]

Sorry, Fish, I’m not following you.

The cops could have dragged him out of the library and arrested him. Explain why not.

[Giles]

[QUOTE=Fish]
Hand-waving is not the answer. There are finite number of police officers and I asked a valid question.

This is a policy that will lead to having 3/4 of the adult population of the U.S.A. serving as police officers so cops always outnumber suspects 3:1.
[/QUOTE]

That’s assuming that every adult who is not a police officer is a suspect. But if it got to that level of non-compliance among the non-police population, it would take a lot more than tasers to solve the problem.

[Cheesesteak]

[QUOTE=Jayrot]
There were (at least) 3 cops present. The quickest and easiest way to resolve the situation is to cuff the guy and drag him out of the library and to the squadcar or whatever holding tank they use.
[/QUOTE]
No, the quickest way to resolve the situation was for the jackass to stop committing crimes like trespassing and disobeying a lawful order from the police.

This whole situation started with the guy screaming at the top of his lungs “Don’t touch me!” Is this a guy you want to just grab and drag down a big flight of stairs?

I’d also note, after the first tasing he is speaking in a VERY calm and measured voice “I got tased for no reason, I was leaving this godforsaken place and you stopped me, you’re abusing your power, here’s your justice at work.” He’s asked a few times to stand up or he’ll be tased again and he answers “fuck you all.”

Sorry, you’ve already been enough of a jerk to force the school to call the cops in the first place, you go apeshit over the police touching you while escorting you out, then tell them to fuck off?

Obviously it should be reviewed to see if the use was within department policy. Even if it wasn’t, though, I can’t say I’m going to care a bit that this guy got tased.

[Apos]

[QUOTE=Zebra]
The fact that he was inciting a riot, maybe you should address that issue next. One shove from the back of the crowd could have sent a person stumbling into the officers. That could escalted the entire incident to really huge fucking deal. The incident as it stands now, no big deal.
[/QUOTE]

Pulling out a taser gun and repeatedly shooting someone with it far more fits the bill of escalation and inciting a riot than some moron yelling a lot in a library.

[Bear_Nenno]

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]

I’d hope you’d say no. Of course, the difference in this case is that the victim was also a perpetrator. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean you can justify crime against them. If someone steals from me, and I hit him, i’ve still comitted a crime, even though i’m the victim.
[/quote]
This analogy misses the point on so many levels. Not the least of which is: If you hit someone WHILE they are stealing from you, you’re not committing a crime. If you did it after the fact, then yeah, you’re carrying out vigilante justice.
If the cops showed up the next day after this incident was over and then taserd the kid, then that’s vigilante punishment. Tasering the kid while he is committing a crime, and while he is refusing to cooperate with lawful commands is not punishment.
If a woman punches someone to make him stop raping her, that is not a crime. If she finds him the next day and punches him, that is.

I believe he wasn’t struggling, though. I don’t see any struggling (apart from when he gets tasered, which is involuntary).

I’m doubting that he simply said “Dont touch me.” and didn’t pull away from the officer. I believe he pulled away or even pushed the officers hand away when he uttered that line. This would be struggling. Have you ever seen someone just yell “Dont touch me” without simultaniously pulling away or slapping the hand of the person doing to touching? Can you even picture him yelling that without any other body movement? Just staring at the officer’s hand on his arm?

I doubt that they were within such guidelines, since tasering a non-violent suspect doesn’t strike me as something that would be passed as law.

You dont view a man yelling and screaming and being uncooperative as ‘potentialy violent’?

Please, tell me how tasering a non-violent suspect for not obeying police orders is not immediate punishment?

It’s not punishment. They’re enforcing the law and reacting to the actions of the criminal. Punishment is not something that happens during a crime. A punishment would come after the crime was over. If they tasered him after he was in the police car on the way to the station, then that would be punishment. (Provided he wasn’t back there trying to bash out a window or otherwise committing potentialy violent crimes.)
How can you call it punishment when it is used to prevent the crime? The crime I mean is his resisting an officer subsequent to his trespassing.

You’re exactly right; as soon as he started being uncooperative, it became a scene.

It also became an additional crime at that point. One the officers used the taser to put an end to. The taser was inflicted during the commission of a crime, not for punishment after the fact.

Oh, and hippy? :dubious: Methinks someone’s letting their prejudices get the better of them.

I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m betting hippy has a lot more meaning to you than me. To me, it’s any crybaby who screams inappropriate and irrelavant bullshit while resisting officers and trying to make a scene. It’s a self-righteous dickhead who thinks he always needs to fight the power and damn the man whenever he’s in trouble for doing something wrong.

I don’t mean protestors of the 60s who actually protested real-life civil rights issues. I call those people mom and dad. I dont have prejudices. If you dislike my choice of wording or if the word hippy makes me seem biggoted or biased, then I would like to retract it. Maybe I should have called him a “wannabe hippy”?

I hear “I SAID I WOULD LEAVE!!”.

I thought I heard him say both. He changed it after the second tasering I believe.
It was “IM! NOT! LEAVING!” zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzapppppppp
“I SAID I WOULD LEAVE!”

[Fish]

[QUOTE=Jayrot]
The cops could have dragged him out of the library and arrested him. Explain why not.
[/QUOTE]

Of course they could just drag him bodily off to jail. I’m not stating otherwise.

But if you define that as the only acceptable means of controlling a non-compliant subject, that is to say what they shoulda done, do you have any idea how many cops we’d need as a result of that being the standard policy? What if he started to resist? Five cops carrying him out? Seven?

[Ethilrist]

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m betting hippy has a lot more meaning to you than me. To me, it’s any crybaby who screams inappropriate and irrelavant bullshit while resisting officers and trying to make a scene. It’s a self-righteous dickhead who thinks he always needs to fight the power and damn the man whenever he’s in trouble for doing something wrong.
[/QUOTE]

To me, it means somebody who’s trying to live a life that’s uncomplicated and free, not necessarily bound by the rules and dictates of society, but also not benefiting from that society, either. So, it didn’t seem too appropriate a term to me. YMMV, of course.

[Bridget_Burke]

[QUOTE=Jayrot]
Once and for all, to all the people trying to pull the “cops have more important things to do elsewhere”:

There were (at least) 3 cops present. The quickest and easiest way to resolve the situation is to cuff the guy and drag him out of the library and to the squadcar or whatever holding tank they use.

The quickest and most efficient resolution is NOT to taser him to the ground and then repeatedly taser him while on the ground building a scene. Unless he’s fighting back or actively resisting.
[/QUOTE]

Just think how many hours the Kampus Kops will have to spend dealing with this mess that their over-reaction caused. How many parking tickets will not be written?

(Would they have treated blue eyed Johnny Johnson the same way they treated this young man of Persian descent?)

[Bear_Nenno]

[QUOTE=Jayrot]
Sorry, Fish, I’m not following you.

The cops could have dragged him out of the library and arrested him. Explain why not.
[/QUOTE]
Because there is no requirement that cops be able to do such a thing. Some cops are 105lb females. Do you suggest we should make it a rule that all cops be physically able to do such a thing?
Despite what television wants us to believe, cops are not kung-fu masters who can/should take on suspects 1 on 1, barehanded, etc.

The other half of the point that Apos neglected to mention, is that unlike batons and impact weapons, the Taser levels the playing field is allows fewer cops to effect an arrest that used to require much more. A cop, or even cops, shouldn’t have to get physical with a suspect if they dont absolutely have to.

Wrestling him into compliance and dragging him down the stairs is much more harmful to the suspect than physical brute force. That’s the other point of the Taser Apos didn’t mention. The Taser, while termporarily painful, is less dangerous to the suspect than being wrestled and dragged around by the cops.

[Tristan]

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
And that isn’t vigilante punishment why?
[/QUOTE]

Because people are expected to obey the orders of a Police Officer. They gave him a lawful order that he was to leave, he refused, the Student Officers went to retrieve a full Officer, who probably wanted to make sure the guy wasn’t stealing or otherwise breakign the law, since he had already broken the rules by refusing to provide his ID. I would wonder if the guy was a theif.

[Cheesesteak]

[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
(Would they have treated blue eyed Johnny Johnson the same way they treated this young man of Persian descent?)
[/QUOTE]
Considering the occasional “sweet old lady/7 year old/innocent-type-person just got tasered” reports, I think blue-eyed Johnny would have gotten a taste if he was carrying on like this guy.

[Bear_Nenno]

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
The other half of the point that Apos neglected to mention, is that unlike batons and impact weapons, the Taser levels the playing field is allows fewer cops to effect an arrest that used to require much more. A cop, or even cops, shouldn’t have to get physical with a suspect if they dont absolutely have
[/QUOTE]
This didn’t come out well. What I meant is that it levels the playing field among officers. Even a baton in the hands of a small statured officer is not very effective. A Taser is very effective and doesn’t rely on the physical strength of the officer.

[Bear_Nenno]

[QUOTE=Ethilrist]
To me, it means somebody who’s trying to live a life that’s uncomplicated and free, not necessarily bound by the rules and dictates of society, but also not benefiting from that society, either. So, it didn’t seem too appropriate a term to me. YMMV, of course.
[/QUOTE]

I accept that it has different and even more personal meaning to other people and will monitor my future use of the word.
Like I said previously, I’d like to at least retract it from this debate and apologize for its use.

[Lemur866]

[QUOTE=Apos]
What the fuck is wrong you/many Americans? Since when did causing people brain-scattering pain become an issue of such blase indifference?

The guy was being a dick, but he was no threat to anyone. They brought in electroshock. That’s a way ridiculous escalation of violence. Half the point of tasers is that they are supposed to provide a non-lethal alternative to using a firearm. Not so that cops can now feel free to shoot non-violent people willy nilly to “keep them on their toes.”
[/QUOTE]

To give you a straight answer to my semiserious earlier assertion, here in America most (white) people have the perception that cops work for us. I know in most parts of the world and for most of the history of civilization the cops worked for the local aristocrats or later for the state. But not here. So we’re inclined to give the cops some elbow room…because we can’t imagine the cops using that elbow room against us and people like us…no, the cops use that leeway against them, and people like them. And for the most part we’re right. 999 times out of a thousand the guys who get smacked around by the cops are guys who deserved it. That’s not to say that 999/1000 complaints of police brutality are baseless, because for the most part the people who deserved to get smacked around by the cops never bother making a complaint about it.

[Revenant_Threshold]

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
This analogy misses the point on so many levels. Not the least of which is: If you hit someone WHILE they are stealing from you, you’re not committing a crime. If you did it after the fact, then yeah, you’re carrying out vigilante justice.
[/quote]
Really? I can assault a guy who’s taking my wallet, as long as I catch his hand in my pocket? Neato!

If the cops showed up the next day after this incident was over and then taserd the kid, then that’s vigilante punishment. Tasering the kid while he is committing a crime, and while he is refusing to cooperate with lawful commands is not punishment.

Of course it is. The alternative is that either he was violent, which I don’t believe he was, or that by tasering him they would get him to change his mind about leaving under his own free power, which is pointless since they could drag him anyway.

If a woman punches someone to make him stop raping her, that is not a crime. If she finds him the next day and punches him, that is.

That would be self-defence, which is an entirely different situation. If you can point out to me where the cops were threatened with physical harm by the suspect, please point it out. I haven’t, as of yet, seen a large amount of evidence that he was struggling, and I have seen considerable evidence the other way.

I’m doubting that he simply said “Dont touch me.” and didn’t pull away from the officer. I believe he pulled away or even pushed the officers hand away when he uttered that line. This would be struggling. Have you ever seen someone just yell “Dont touch me” without simultaniously pulling away or slapping the hand of the person doing to touching? Can you even picture him yelling that without any other body movement? Just staring at the officer’s hand on his arm?

Having never been cuffed, I’m not certain how easy it would be to push away an officer while lying on the floor with my arms behind my back, though i’m sure it can be done. Can I picture him saying that and moving away or pushing the cop away? Yes, I can. I can also imagine him not moving and not pushing away the cop. Show me the evidence that makes you so certain it’s one and not the other.

You dont view a man yelling and screaming and being uncooperative as ‘potentialy violent’?

Let’s be clear; a man yelling, and screaming in pain and probably shock from being tasered, and being uncooperative, while cuffed and on the floor. Potentially violent? Certainly. But he had no access to a weapon, assuming witnesses would have mentioned it, and he did not appear to struggle. And, certainly, he was very much less “potentially violent” by the second tasering and his screaming of “I said I would leave”.

It’s not punishment. They’re enforcing the law and reacting to the actions of the criminal. Punishment is not something that happens during a crime. A punishment would come after the crime was over. If they tasered him after he was in the police car on the way to the station, then that would be punishment. (Provided he wasn’t back there trying to bash out a window or otherwise committing potentialy violent crimes.)

You’re correct; they are enforcing the law. They could also have enforced the law by dragging him off the premises. That they chose not to, and that they instead chose to use a method that delivered pain, suggests to me that it was a punishment.

How can you call it punishment when it is used to prevent the crime? The crime I mean is his resisting an officer subsequent to his trespassing.

It didn’t prevent the crime. Did tasering him teleport him out of the library? No; in fact, it kept him in the library longer, when the cops could have had him out of there much sooner and with a lot less fuss (and bad press).

It also became an additional crime at that point. One the officers used the taser to put an end to. The taser was inflicted during the commission of a crime, not for punishment after the fact.

It was punishment for him refusing to obey an order. He did not obey; the choices were to drag him out and charge him with resisting arrest later, or tasering him; the cops chose to taser. It was immediate punishment for his crime.

I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m betting hippy has a lot more meaning to you than me. <snip> If you dislike my choice of wording or if the word hippy makes me seem biggoted or biased, then I would like to retract it. Maybe I should have called him a “wannabe hippy”?

It does make you seem kinda biased, yes; “hippy” is far enough away from “student resisting arrest whilst shouting about “The Man”” that there’s some outside influence there. But if you’re withdrawing it, fair enough.

I thought I heard him say both. He changed it after the second tasering I believe.
It was “IM! NOT! LEAVING!” zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzapppppppp
“I SAID I WOULD LEAVE!”

Which begs the question; when did he say he was leaving? If he claims he says he was leaving directly after a tasering, and he’s being truthful, then he was willing to leave and the cops tasered him anyway.

[QUOTE=Tristan]
Because people are expected to obey the orders of a Police Officer. They gave him a lawful order that he was to leave, he refused, the Student Officers went to retrieve a full Officer, who probably wanted to make sure the guy wasn’t stealing or otherwise breakign the law, since he had already broken the rules by refusing to provide his ID. I would wonder if the guy was a theif.
[/QUOTE]
Could they have shot the guy? Tortured him until he gave in and went with them? Kneecapped him?