The overall consensus in this thread is a lot different than I expected it would be, and frankly it scares me more than a little. People seem to have a surprisingly low threshold for what is an acceptable situation to use a violent weapon in. It’s the same lock-step acceptance of authority that seems to be permeating our culture, from incidents such as this to torture at Abu Ghraib and unchallenged detainment in Guantánamo Bay.
Fish, was your last post addressed to me?
But a bruise would be accidental. There’s a considerable difference between tasering a guy and accidentally causing a bruise from dragging (assuming it’s a true accident).
Alright, but dragging is also a method of forcing a suspect to comply. You haven’t yet shown how tasering in this instance was a better choice than just dragging him.
You could get tasered for verbal noncompliance? As much as that’s a stupid thing to do, I think tasering in that kind of situation would be always pretty damn excessive. But that’s besides the point.
I don’t see why a cop would be more at risk in this situation from dragging rather than tasering. The suspect wasn’t attacking, nor was he likely to be attacked by anyone else. And there were three of them, meaning dragging would be, though not easy, not exactly an exhausting strain.
And, again, if there are injuries from dragging they would be accidental.
Oh, and I notice you suggest screaming and crying out would be due to the shock. Does this mean we can remove the suspect’s screaming entirely from his likelihood to be violent?
My point was, if a cop thinks a suspect may attack him at some later point, and a taser incapacitates you for a very short time, how does it stop the suspect attacking? As you point out in your response, you’d need to taser the suspect again when they attacked; it being only a useful weapon when there is an immediate threat.
I disagree. I think dragging would have been better, since any injury from that would have been accidental. In addition, dragging the suspect would have been quicker, meaning the cops could have been somewhere else sooner. And not knowing how long the battery of a taser lasts, not using it several times on a guy who doesn’t need it means you’ll have the full use of it should it become absolutely necessary to deal with an immediate threat.
Correct me if i’m wrong, but I suspect an officer, who must be in decent condition, who expects a taser, and who has already been tasered himself at least once before that video, would be able to shake off it’s effects easier than someone who might not be, doesn’t, and (presumably) hasn’t?
The problem, Lama Pacos is that the consensus in this thread is the Taser is a violent weapon. That premise is the whole problem hear. I am not condoning the excessive use of violence among police officers. These officers were not beating the shit out of someone, they were employing a very nonviolent tool to effect the arrest.
I can never get worked up over Taser use. If I had to choose right now whether I wanted to be hit with an ASP baton, pepper sprayed, punched in the face with a fist, CS Gassed or Tasered, I would choose the Taser, hands down.
… well maybe the CS Gas. But that isn’t really relevant here. It’s not like that is an option here.
Yes. One causes an injury that lasts for at least a week. The other has no lasting injury whatsoever.
I agree. I found both the Bruin article and the video deeply disturbing. I cannot imagine how use of the taser could possibly have been justified in this situation. No amount of policy overrides what seems to me elemental human judgment.
If someone is non-compliant and will not go easily the potential for harm and injury goes up for all involved, including the suspect, just from the struggle itself. By tasing him, although it hurts like hell it can subdue the suspect enough for his own safety as well as the officers involved.
I think a lot of people don’t understand just what cops put up with. You live your lives with relatively normal, sane people. The cops have to deal with everyone, including the psychopaths who will try to kill them.
There’s a video on Youtube of a cop pulling over behind a guy walking the side of the freeway. The cop steps out of his car, walks a few feet, calls to the guy, and the guy whips out a pistol, turns around, and shoots him. No warning whatsoever.
The cops don’t know that he’s a student. Hell, even if they did know he was a student, that doesn’t mean he’s not demented.
All they know is he’s some lunatic who may have snuck into the building illegally, not following their lawful and reasonable orders, and screeching “I WILL NOT LEAVE, GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME” like a maniac at the top of his lungs. If they grabbed him by his arms and pulled him out, who knows what he’d do? Maybe he’d attack one of them. Why should the police put their lives in danger just to protect this asshole, who’s decided to ignore them?
He brought it on himself. I have no sympathy for people who don’t cooperate with the police.
And one is accidental, while the other is intentional. I’m in more trouble if I knock a guy unconscious on purpose than if I break both his legs accidentally, even though i’ve caused more damage with the latter.
Well if I knock a guy out so that he won’t possibly break his legs it isn’t so clear then. And also, the real world isn’t so neat and clean, what may be an accident certainly doesn’t mean a supsect won’t file a report, sue the city or whatever.
A more primitive approach and one prone to injury on both sides, but yes, it was also an option.
And I guess I can’t unless I could show you videos of suspects dragged down stairs to compare this to.
Not everywhere. But pepper spray, a much more painful and lasting device can be used pretty much everywhere in the country upon simple verbal noncompliance.
I would almost agree if the officer never gave a warning first. If an officer says “Cease this action or you will be Sprayed/Tasered” and you say “Fuck Off”, then it’s not excessive force. You were warned that the officer was within his/her rights. And you were given the option to obey or disobey a lawful command. If you choose option B, that’s your fault. And a country that allows people to later seek payment for grievance is not dangerously approaching a police state.
If a cop tells you, “Leave here or you will be Tasered” and you think they dont have the authority, then leave and file a complaint.
Because you’ve never tried to wrestle a suspect or drag him down the stairs unwillingly.
A suspect can still sue for accidental injury. Which would you prefer if you ran a department? Would you make policy that made you more prone to lawsuit by causing unnescessary injury and medical expenses and comptime for your officers? Or one that quickly, and nonviolently puts an end to the situation. Departments don’t like lawsuits. Accidental injuries, especially incidental bruises cause many lawsuits.
Then he can pull the trigger again. The Taser is not a oneshot only device. You can always pull the trigger again. If the threat is serious enough, pull out another weapon.
Better for whom? The injured suspect? The injured cop? How many accidental injuries should a cop be required to withstand in his or her career? What’s fair?
Possibly quicker. How far did they have to go. I know I keep saying stairs, but were there stairs? If not, how far are they to the car? How far should they have to fight and drag this guy?
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And not knowing how long the battery of a taser lasts, not using it several times on a guy who doesn’t need it means you’ll have the full use of it should it become absolutely necessary to deal with an immediate threat.
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After you use it on a scene, you reload it and replace the battery. If some new threat presents itself on that scene, you can quickly replace the probes and shoot it again. Or you can take the probe cartridge off and use it like a handheld oldfashioned stun gun.
And if something is that absolutely dangerous, you can use your baton or maybe your gun depending on the situation.
Maybe. But we’re talking seconds, not minutes. And if the suspect said “Please give me one second to catch my breath I will get up” that’s one thing. If he says “Fuck you I’m not going!!! PATRIOT ACT!! OMG, Oppression!!!” then that’s something else.
This is what I was wondering. I’ve never had to drag a grown person any distance; nor have I ever been dragged any distance myself. But it seems to me that two adults dragging another adult would almost certainly cause the dragged guy some pain and/ or injury. Particularly if the dragged guy had his hands secured behind his back and was completely limp dead weight. I’m not familiar with the library in question, but if there were steps there, then they’d be even more likely to hurt the guy while dragging him. A quick-zap tazering may have been a sfaer option, overall, than dragging him though a large building and down a flight of stone steps to outside.
Or maybe not. The student was clearly a prick – that much is clearly in evidence. And the cops may have overreacted. If it’s determined that they did overrreact I hope (and assume) that they’ll be punished for it.
God, this is a fucking scary attitude. What? The police are always right, honourable and just by definition?
And hey, tasers must hurt like a /motherfuck/, but it’s just peachy for police officers to effectively torture ‘compliance’ out of those durned college-boy, ivory-tower hippies? Serves 'em right for thinking they’re so smart!
There was NO DANGER, but you reckon officers of the law are justified in causing a person excruciating pain? Repeatedly? Over something as stupid as this? Because hey, we have some real manly-men around here who shrug off taser strikes like nerf balls, right?
I have no words.
It’ easier if you take it sylable by sylable: Ta-ba-ta-ba-ah-ee-na-jad.
Try to alleviate ignorance instead of spreading it. The University of California system has actual police officers. They are sworn police officers in the State of California.
That being said, there are also security guards employed on the campuses. Your prejudicial comment about security guards also indicates you may need a wee bit thinner brush in your art supply drawer.
You’re right, it’s not so clear in that case. It would depend really on how likely it was that he’d break his legs; to bring it back to this case, how likely is it that the suspect or the cop would be injured by dragging him?
Regarding lawsuits; you think this guy won’t file a report that the cops acted excessively?
Primitive doesn’t have to mean worse. And it really depends how prone to injury the suspect and cops would be; not being a cop myself (or having been dragged away by one) I wouldn’t know; how often have you been injured dragging away a limp suspect?
Well, you’d need to show me videos of that along with the bruises recieved from the dragging (if any), because i’m a suspicious bastard like that. 
Then that’s bad too.
I would agree with all that, assuming that dragging was somehow completely not an option. By “disobeying a verbal order” I was meaning something along the lines of “Move, you can’t be here” “No” “Zzzap!”.
Wrestle? He wasn’t fighting back. But you are correct that I have no first-hand experience of dragging a guys down stairs.
I’ll ask you the same question I asked Gangster Octopus; you don’t think this guy will sue on grounds of excessive force?
Yes, but my point is, if it doesn’t work in the first place, then there’s no point in using it until there’s and immediate threat. And if you use it pointlessly, then that’s excessive force.
Better for the suspect, since any injury would be accidental. Worse for the cop, because the chance they could be injured goes up. That something leaves a cop open to more risk is not the sole reason to avoid a particular approach, though.
In return, i’ll ask you; how many taserings should a suspect be forced to undergo before the cops give up and just drag him?
There were actual stairs; judging from the video, he was near an entrance to the library that was itself near some stairs. So you’re entirely in the right to bring that up.
If i’m reading the reports correctly, the cops were in fact using it as an oldfashioned stun gun rather than by using the probes. My point still stands, though; you could run out of batteries awful fast if you taser every passive suspect, and leave you empty for an active suspect.
But presumably a taser is better, or that would not be the first choice.
Again, I would think it’s a lot harder to get back to rational thought and concise, clear speaking if someone’s just tasered you unexpectedly. And I ask you to note that he was yelling about the Patriot Act and oppression in his assholish way before he was tasered, and that he was tasered after saying he would leave.
No. But when the police are ordering you to do something, that is not the place to dispute whether they are right. You do what they say, and take it up later with a judge if you’re not happy about it.
We know now that there was no danger. At the time, the police didn’t know that.
They were perfectly justified in using the taser to gain compliance. The only other option would be physically forcing the guy out of there. And as I said before, the police should not be obligated to put their lives in any more risk than necessary because this idiot decided to ignore their orders.
According to the ACLU, threatening to taser someone in response to a request for a badge number is illegal. In fact, they claim that it’s assault.
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960
I maintain my position. Using tasers was a ridiculous escalation of force in a situation where there was no evidence of violence or a threat of violence.
I haven’t watched the video, but was under the impression that the other student was asking for his badge number at an inappropriate time (in the midst of a struggle). The other student then began to advance, at which point the officer threatened to tase him/her. I am probably way off.
My sister’s ex was a sworn police officer in the State of Illinois, and a bit of a nutcase.
My comment about security guards was not intended to be prejudicial but rather illustrative of my understanding of law enforcement hierarchy.
Just curious – if you were the cops, and the guy was behaving like that, what would you have done?