Breech of confidentiality?

[[Doctor writes an Rx for his patient. Patient takes Rx to pharmacy. Pharmacy fills Rx. Doctors office calls pharmacy later questioning the Rx. Pharmacist answers doctors office questions. Pharmcacy now being sued by patient for breech of confidentiality, giving information to a 3rd party(her own doctor!). Any thoughts?]]

I don’t understand how the doctor is seen as a “3rd party” here. Pharmacists are free to discuss medications with the doctor who prescribed them. I do think pharmacists should be careful giving patient information to someone identifying him/herself as medical office staff on the phone.

handy - the doctor’s office called the pharmacist. it would be quite understandable if the pharmacist had called the doctor’s office. Okay, jcama, what’s the whole story, or was this just a riddle?

Patient: I need this prescription filled.

Pharmacist: Is this the doctor’s inscription?

Patient: The prescription with the inscription has the pills for my ills.

Pharmacist: OK. {gets to work on it}

{phone rings}

Doctor’s Office: I’m calling about the prescription with the inscription.

Pharmacist: The one with the pills for the ills?

Doctor’s Office: No. I mean yes. No… let me explain. Those aren’t the right pills for the ills.

Pharmacist: What?! Not the right pills for the ills? But isn’t this the doctor’s inscription on the prescription.

Doctor’s Office: Yes, but the patient isn’t ill, he has bugs and needs the right drugs.

Pharmacist: So, shall I change the doctor’s inscription on the prescription for the drugs for the bugs?

Doctor’s Office: No, you can’t change a doctor’s inscription on a prescription. We’ll modify the the prescription with new medication and fax it to you.

Pharmacist: OK. {Hangs up. Then calls the patient over} Your doctor’s office called, he’s modified your prescription with new medication.

Patient: What?! You’re not going to give me the pills for my ills? You mean, you now know about my… bugs?

Pharmacist: Yeah, sorry, I can’t give you the pills for your ills from the prescription with the inscription, I must give you the medication from the modication which has the drugs for the bugs.

=============

And that’s why the doctor’s office is being sued.

modification

{rolling eyes} Darn. So close.

I also call for Jcamacho to come clean with the rest of this story!

Semi-related story:

A TX jury awarded $425,000 to the family of a man who died of a heart attack. His doc had written a prescription for Isordil, 20 mg q.i.d.[, or 4x/day. The pharmacist misread the script & gave the patient Plendil instead, even though the usual maximum daily dosage of Plendil is 10 mg, and there is no reason to take it more frequently than once daily.

A simple phone call could have prevented this lawsuit, if not the actual event…


Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html

Sue said

I third that! Partly out of curiosity and partly to get it back on track after a waylay it for a minute here.

Sue,

As I posted above, I really did get a ‘scrip for papain filled with Percodan once. I know people joke about doctors’ handwriting; is there some system of codes or some such that reduces the chance of wrong thing screwups?

Regards

Nope.

There are several instances of vastly different drugs, with similar dosages, and names a lot more alike than Plendil & Isordil.

Feldene 20 1x/day arthritis
Seldane 20 2x/day allergies (off the market now)

Clonidine 0.1-0.3 2-3x/day high blood pressure
Clonipine 0.5 1/day sleep


Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html

As a pharmacist I will say this: Consultation between professionals is fine with the law and expected. Therefore no breach of confidentiality in this case exists. Confidentiality, btw, also includes those working on the periphery: techs, even cashiers working in the pharmacy; billing personnel working in the doctor’s office and of course all those hospital workers from janitors to finance people who are in some position to see more than what you want them to see. Also, even if a second doctor did call to consult about another doctor’s rx it would still be expected that a consultation would occur and there would be no breach of confidentiality.


“Valenton del mundo!”

Wow! A person who knows, giving a plausible explanation, where the explanation is even logical.

Definitely something fishy going on here. Call the papers!


It is too clear, and so it is hard to see.

Well, since this is really a legal question rather than a pharmeceutical one, I’ll weigh in as an Attorney.

  1. For there to be a breach of something, there must be something to breach. That is, you can’t talk about breaching something until a duty exists. This naturally raises the question of whether such a duty exists in this situation. Generally speaking, I think we could agree that a pharmacist has a duty to maintain the confidentiality of a patient’s medical or pharmacy records.

  2. How far does that duty extend? If a patient has a reasonable expectation that information will be held confidential, the duty should exist. So, in some cases it won’t. For instance, imagine the EMT’s are trying to revive you and find out you had recently taken some unidentified medication. They contact your pharmacist to determine what it was. By disclosing this to the EMT’s the pharmicist has not breached his duty, because it would not be reasonable for you to expect him to. Is it reasonable to expect your pharmicist to withhold prescription information from the physician who prescribed the medication? Probably not.

  3. However, we can all imagine a hypothetical where a patient might have a reasonable expectation that a pharmicist would not share prescription information with a physician. It couldhappen. We need more detailed facts to make an accurate determination. According to the general description provided, it appears that there was no breach because no duty of confidentiality existed. However, additional facts may change that analysis.

I think this is one of the reasons that outrageous jury awards strike such a nerve. The media provides very limited information on the actual facts of the case, so when a large verdict is announced it seems ridiculous based upon the information we’ve been provided. I wonder how many of these would seem more reasonable if we had heard all the evidence the jury did.


Plunging like stones from a slingshot on Mars.

Oh yeah, and that magical pants thing cracked me up.

Thanks for all your replies and sorry for all my spellin errors. MajorMd was right on the nose. Doctors nurse called asking about refill status of Rx for Darvocet for their patient. I told the Rx’s original date and that it had 3 refills on it, nurse said no way. I pulled the hard copy and 1 refill was circled but “sqiggled” out and then 3 refills were circled. I faxed the Rx to nurse so she could ask the MD. I couldn’t believe this long time customer in good standing could do such a thing so I asked the nurse to get back to me and let me know. Nurse called the next day and said MD did not change the Rx(written 5 months ago-good memory) and the patient had altered it. Patient then went bolistic like MajorMD said and now I’m being sued for answering the doctor’s office questions. Several things in this case. Dr is not at all named in lawsuit? Patient has never had a problem getting a Rx for Darvocet, legitimate medical problem, so why would she try to alter it? Pharmacists get a feel for altered Rx’s, this one sent off no warning signs. Ink was same in color, width of point and pressure used to make the alteration were the same. Alteration was consistent with other notations on the Rx.

It was the Vessle with the Pestle. The Chalace was from the Palace. :wink:

(Don’t forget the Flagon with the Dragon…)

From the wonderings of the pharmacist here, it sounds like we might need some real detective work yet, in this case, to discover enough facts to get to just the basic nature of what went on here.

Having categorized attorneys previously in this forum in rather unsparkling terms, I’d like to say that I thought frankd6 posted a very decent, unassuming post, appropriately asking for more facts.

Having questioned the professional behavior of journalists in this forum, I have received considerable flak here. I’m glad to see here another poster question the adequacy of much of news writers’ professional products. . .but it turned out here that the press was not even involved in the information we’ve been given here.

I probably haven’t gotten enough onto physicians’ cases in this forum, but they really slay me (well, they haven’t quite finished the job yet). So, I might say ‘Cave medico’. . .or something more grammatically correct if I knew Latin.

But I guess, at the present point, I would tend to scrutinize the long-term, reliable, justifiably ill, sufficiently past-served patient, in this case. Perhaps she decided to try to provide medication to a second person by way of her prescription, and after going “bolistic” [sic], got an attorney who figured he’d get too high-powered an opposing team of lawyers if he sued the physician, whereas the pharmacist might not be in so well-off a position to buy, or have an insurer buy a bunch of heavy attorneys.

But the matter of sheer available ease in any non-originator’s altering a medical prescription draws my attention, and it takes me back to the almighty American medical ego. VA medical-records policy now requires that at least most of such be digitally stored plain text with at least a certain amount of access security; but, as far as I know, almost all other MDs still, at the demise of this millenium, scribble their medical records. . .and presecriptions. . .by hand. Actually, all I’ve seen have been reasonably readable, but I cannot believe that many others have not produced errors at pharmacies, in prescriptions – and in the offices of subsequent physicians’ who attempt to read their patient records.

MDs appear to still seat their self-seen special, lofty social stance on their not abiding by most of the time-proven business practices of other professionals. One of these practices of other businesses is to emboss-imprint the values of checks issued by their offices. I see no reason why material descriptions and dosages in prescriptions should not be so imprinted. I doubt the equipment for doing such is of a price high compared to that of other equipment in most physicians’ (and other prescribing professionals’) offices. To obviate a need for movable literal typeface, the secure form for the drug name could be coded numerically. Why should the pharmacist get stuck in this mess, probably merely because he’s seen to be more easily sued, or easier to get a few bucks out of in exchange for dropping such a suit.

I might say that I do hope that poor spelling in pharmacists does not correlate to poor reading of prescriptions, in their cases. :wink:

Ray (a hard pill to swallow?)

Sorry, Ray, but you’re preaching to the choir, here -

  1. When I was a medical student, even if they couldn’t think of much else nice to say, preceptors usually complimented the coherence & legibility of my notes.

  2. I work for the Army. 99% of my prescriptions are filled at the Pharmacy at the hospital at which I work. All of these are entered electronically into the computer. This has +s and -s; while Seldane and Feldene are hard to confuse in this system, it IS distressingly easy to put in the right prescription under the wrong patient. Since I no longer have any reason to carry a prescription pad around, I can’t write a prescription on-the-spot for someone I meet in the hallway; truly a mixed blessing.

Doctor’s notes, until recently, were viewed simply as reminders to the docs themselves about what they were thinking, & why they did certain things the way they did. Once rising malpractice suits and insurance company scrutiny created the concept that the notes MUST reflect everything that was done (if you didn’t document it, you didn’t do it), and accrediting organizations started also requiring complete documentation, doctor’s notes suddenly had to be legible to everyone, not just to themselves. This coincided with an increasingly mobile society and frequent health care plan/provider changes that made it medically crucial to be able to “seamlessly” continue care started by someone else.

Voice recognition technology is not quite there yet. Paying for 100% transcription of doctors notes is expensive; many clinics do it, but many others cannot. Typed notes will be the rule in the near future, clearly, but… since these notes are subject to review by so many people, doctor’s have to separately keep any notes intended strictly for themselves… suspicions about a patient who frequently demands narcotics, illegal drug use, or domestic violence that they might want to bring up in future visits. Since patients, their lawyers, & their insurance companies may all have access to these notes, any concerns like these need to be kept out of notes unless pretty well-substantiated. This, combined with ridiculously short clinic visits, makes it less likely that the domestic abuse that causes the depression that causes the headaches that causes the clinic visit ever gets addressed. Instead, a woman goes home with an imprinted prescription for Midrin, and gets beaten to death that night…

My experience with computer-entered notes is that they are easier to read, but communicate less. Follow-up notes for a given patient with a given condition often degenerate into notes in which 95% of the information is “pre-entered” and little actual thought process is reflected. One of the major criticisms I have of the young doctors I supervise is how much time they spend in front of a terminal and how little time they spend in the patients’ rooms. Entering admission orders on the system we have takes 15-20 for an average patient. The same hand-written orders used to take 5 minutes max. Yes, the nurses can read them, and make task lists that help ensure that everything gets done when it should… but the “caring” all too often does not. Go talk to the patient that just learned their cancer is not responding to treatment about their families, and their lives, and try to relieve their fears; that’s not on the checklists…

But I digress. In the increasingly complex medical environment in which I practice, legible prescriptions are a must. But computers increasingly are making medicine a hands-off profession, and I deeply regret that.


Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html

Gee, thanks Ray. See, we aren’t all ogres, sharks or shysters. Some of us are even good old fashioned Dopers!


Plunging like stones from a slingshot on Mars.

*Sorry, Ray, but you’re preaching to the choir, here -

           1. When I was a medical student, even if they couldn't think of
           much else nice to say, preceptors usually complimented the
           coherence & legibility of my notes.

           2. I work for the Army. 99% of my prescriptions are filled at the
           Pharmacy at the hospital at which I work. All of these are entered
           electronically into the computer.*

You’re only in the choir because the US Govt. pays you to be, right?

This has +s and -s; while
Seldane and Feldene are hard to confuse in this system, it IS
distressingly easy to put in the right prescription under the wrong
patient.

If both full name and serial number have to match, how is ID-matching in this case more of a problem than with the handwriting of MDs who don’t care how they spell someone’s name or whether a few digits in a number are different?

Since I no longer have any reason to carry a prescription
pad around, I can’t write a prescription on-the-spot for someone I
meet in the hallway; truly a mixed blessing.

Enter the prescription into the system with your Palm Pilot. Let the patient in the hall go to the nearest printout station for hard copy. How often does this scenario come up anyway?

           *Doctor's notes, until recently, were viewed simply as reminders to
           the docs themselves about what they were thinking, & why they
           did certain things the way they did.*

Pfffffff!!! Recent? I’m 68. The above never was true in my lifetime! Nobody cares what MDs write strictly to themselves, i.e., so long as it’s not accessible to anyone else, including other MDs and all employees of their offices and associated facilities, all other providers, HMOs, insurance companies, government authorities (exc. where legally not covered by doctor-patient confidentiality), relatives and the Mafia. I don’t care if they write “Pt. hates MDs” in their strictly personal reminder notes, so long as they know they are subject to huge lawsuits if their security be found to be insufficient to keep such “information” from all others.

Once rising malpractice suits
and insurance company scrutiny created the concept that the
notes MUST reflect everything that was done (if you didn’t
document it, you didn’t do it), and accrediting organizations
started also requiring complete documentation, doctor’s notes
suddenly had to be legible to everyone, not just to themselves.

Let us note here that this MD, and almost all of them, doesn’t care a whit about impediments to the patient’s access to often ignorant, stupid, fantastic or malicious material placed in his/her record by an MD.

           *This coincided with an increasingly mobile society and frequent
           health care plan/provider changes that made it medically crucial
           to be able to "seamlessly" continue care started by someone else.*

You and essentially all MDs clearly feel “seamless[ness]” between providers is a plus to one’s health. Often a change of provider is effected by the patient as a result of knowledge or suspicion that the current provider is quite off the proper track for improving or maintaining his/her health. I have found utter garbage and some considerable hostility recorded in MDs’ records on my consultations with / treatments by them. Almost always, I desire complete severance at the seam. If there be a need to transmit info on past events or treatments relevant to a consultation with a new provider, usually I will want myself to be the conduit of all info on what went on before, and I will want to provide same in such interleaved sequence with physiological examination and original reasoning of the new provider as I believe is in the interest of my health, not in that of the egos and game-playing of MDs.

           *Voice recognition technology is not quite there yet. Paying for
           100% transcription of doctors notes is expensive; many clinics do
           it, but many others cannot. Typed notes will be the rule in the
           near future, clearly,*

Instead of MDs’ trying to be overlords and sociologists as well as physicians, let them become typists as well as the latter. I’m not clear on what goes on in the schools today. All these kids using computers from before kindergarten – do they just continue to hunt and peck, or are they ever stuck into typing classes en masse? In the process of typing into a text editor / wordprocessor you end up with much more coherent notes, as a result of the ease of correction made available, as well as notes that are more legible. (That aspect of writing may be more applicable to me than to you.)

but… since these notes are subject to
review by so many people, doctor’s have to separately keep any
notes intended strictly for themselves… suspicions about a
patient who frequently demands narcotics, illegal drug use, or
domestic violence that they might want to bring up in future
visits. Since patients, their lawyers, & their insurance companies
may all have access to these notes, any concerns like these need
to be kept out of notes unless pretty well-substantiated.

Well, they may want to but they shouldn’t necessarily have to in many cases. Whatever; they aren’t done-over, duplicate notes, obviously.

This,
combined with ridiculously short clinic visits, makes it less likely
that the domestic abuse that causes the depression that causes
the headaches that causes the clinic visit ever gets addressed.
Instead, a woman goes home with an imprinted prescription for
Midrin, and gets beaten to death that night…

In most cases, I think the MD, in getting into such things, is taking on a role outside his/her profession. That sort of thing is one of the things I hate most about physicians. They train mostly through rote memory, because they don’t like science and mathematics; they don’t observe normal or dysfunctional physiology well; they don’t reason well from what they do pick up on to some extent, because they hang onto prehistoric paradigms – but they love to jump into things that are beyond their bailiwick. They probably have time at a consultation to ask the patient if she would consider talking to a social worker in some general way. A note only to herself that she had done so, would be sufficient to remind her to check on this further at a subsequent consultation with the patient.

           *My experience with computer-entered notes is that they are
           easier to read, but communicate less. Follow-up notes for a given
           patient with a given condition often degenerate into notes in
           which 95% of the information is "pre-entered" and little actual
           thought process is reflected.*

Yes, blame the computer for this, of course. Look at the posts to this message board. Some have lots of content and many have next to none. I have, in all the non-VA or older VA patient records on me, exactly the same or more amount, of the boilerplate you complain of in their handwritten instances, as I do in their few recent typed instances. Physicians are slaves to their culture; generally, they don’t wish to be driven by specific facts or modern, effective means of organizing them in ways to optimize treatment, rather than containing them in cultural doubletalk for the purpose of filling tomes in medical libraries that collect dust, while reality connect

But I think, you’ve more than made up for that, now…


Sue from El Paso
members.aol.com/majormd/index.html

Wow, where do I start?

Not true. Lots of people have legal access to MDs notes, especially in litigation. I scrutinize them with care. Even if it never goes to litigation, people who make claims for benefits with insurance companies or government agencies can expect to have their medical records perused. Or if someone is applying for life insurance. Yes, it’s reasonable to expect that your doctor doesn’t go home and gossip with his/her spouse about a patient’s condition, but it’s not reasonable to expect that nobody else is gonna see those notes.

A vastly unfair statement, since the good doctor was not asked to comment on this aspect of access.

And if indeed you are in California, you have an absolute right to look at your medical records; all you have to do is ask for them.

Paranoid much?

Can’t imagine where the hosility could come from, eh?

Most of this is just utter nonsense. The average patient is not qualified to know what information should be passed on to the next health care provider, and a lot of valuable time can be lost if the next physician down the line has to reinvent the wheel. Even if by reason of training and experience you are capable of identifying relevant information and communicating it properly, the system needs to work for those who don’t have that knowledge. Possible drug interaction problems are just one small reason why this is so.

Flunked out of med school, did you? Or couldn’t get in in the first place?

Sorry, if the doctor makes that note “to herself” she’s got problems. Professional standards and legal concerns require that if she makes the note, it becomes discoverable. And you can’t expect her to keep those notes in her head, not for each individual patient.

And what are your qualifications? What is there about you that should make us wait breathlessly for YOU to “conclude” whether this is the right way to go about it or not?

See comment about medical school, above, and also re: qualifications.

Wow, a joke. Let’s all laugh now. Ha ha.

Since you seem to hate doctors so much, do the rest of the vets in the system and stop going to them, so that the ones who need the care don’t have to compete with you for scarce resources while you’re off trying to “change providers.” I bet you’re one of those who flit from doctor to doctor, looking for someone to tell you something different.

Back to the OP – seems to me that this case should be dismissed rather quickly on demurrer or summary judgment. Hope you carried professional liability insurance so that you’re not paying for the defense out of your own pocket.

-Melin