# Bremer's 97 Theses, or, The Madness of King George, Vol. 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675 "2004-06-29T06:34:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/21 "2004-06-29T16:15:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t take potshots at liberals, I take potshots at idiots. Not only do you confine your potshots almost exclusively to being potshots against liberals (go back through your own posts if you don’t believe me), you’re taking potshots at your God, if I understand your theology correctly. No matter how stupid you think liberals are being, potshots are not how you should be responding to them. What’s worse, in this very same post you bear false witness against **Elucidator**. Shameful. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/22 "2004-06-29T16:24:57Z")
Oh, that’s quite all right, **Lefty**. I am assurred of your generous regard, the respect of honest men is more than most of us get, vastly more than most deserve. “'Tis not as deep as a well, nor as wide as a church door, but 'tis enough, it will suffice”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/23 "2004-06-29T16:30:18Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Not only do you confine your potshots almost exclusively to being potshots against liberals (go back through your own posts if you don’t believe me), you’re taking potshots at your God, if I understand your theology correctly. No matter how stupid you think liberals are being, potshots are not how you should be responding to them. > > What’s worse, in this very same post you bear false witness against **Elucidator**. > > Shameful. > Daniel Oh, Lordy, I give God a fit every day, and as I’ve said often, I’m a lousy rep for Him. I know that you’ve taken it upon yourself to remind me often that I believe that Elucidator is God, and I appreciate that. But the only reason there are more potshots at leftists than rightists is because there are vastly more leftists than rightists here. I hold both extremes in contempt. And I don’t believe that I’ve misrepresented Elucidator. Is he not one tick shy of Reeder in terms of Bush bashing? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/24 "2004-06-29T16:36:11Z")
God is truth, I merely speak truth. I am no more God than a window is light. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/25 "2004-06-29T16:39:54Z")
I think your mouth is the window, but your spirit is the light. I do think you’re God. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/26 "2004-06-29T17:06:17Z")
> [@dantheman](#): > > You’re confused. Since when do people have to present an alternate plan to what they’re ranting against? Since the ‘Loyal Opposition’ spends so much frigging time bitching and moaning, one would think that at least the outline of a plan would occasionally surface. Waving your hands about and vaguely mumbling something about ‘UN’ or ‘tax the rich’ doesn’t really strike me as a well thought out plan. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/27 "2004-06-29T17:18:00Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Since the ‘Loyal Opposition’ spends so much frigging time bitching and moaning, one would think that at least the outline of a plan would occasionally surface. Waving your hands about and vaguely mumbling something about ‘UN’ or ‘tax the rich’ doesn’t really strike me as a well thought out plan. I actually _sort of_ agree with you for once. I don’t think it’s a requirement to put forth a better plan, but it would be nice to hear how people would handle the current situation in specificity. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/28 "2004-06-29T17:47:01Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > … Waving your hands about and vaguely mumbling something about ‘UN’ or ‘tax the rich’ doesn’t really strike me as a well thought out plan. Are we to take it, then, that the “Bremer Plan”, as outlined above, has your unstinting approval? One notes that despite your contempt for the criticism leveled, you have no clear suggestions of your own. I have the creepy feeling that **Globe Gobbler** may have it right. I started a thread on the same theme, “Thinking the Unthinkable”. Certainly we must exhaust every meaningful alternative, it would be ghastly to simply abandon these people to the consequences of _our_ stupidity. But just as he says, there comes a point when further investment of lives and treasure is useless, squandered to no good end. I guess the real trick is knowing where that point is. As self-serving and partisan as it must seem, an election might go a long way. If we re-install GeeDubya, we are essentially ratifying and accepting what has gone on before, and that is how it will be seen. At least with a new administration, we can make some claim to changing our ways, and perhaps proceed in the direction of some of the wretched compromises we are obliged to ponder. Some of the elements of the “Bremer Plan” give me chills: the emphasis on intelligence police, that sort of thing. It gives me the dreadful feeling that the Bushiviks have decided that a new! improved! tyranny is acceptable, so long as it is not actively hostile. (Of course, at this point, technical difficulties and media bias have prevented the scenes of glad Iraqis demonstrating, in thier thousands, thier deep affection and gratitude…) > [@Liberal](#): > > …I think your mouth is the window, but your spirit is the light. I do think you’re God… Well said. Much can be forgiven the eloquent, as well as the theologicly astute. Go, and sin no more. And, next time, don’t forget Eric Clapton. (Besides, truth be known, I find the accusation of raping a gang perversely flattering…) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/29 "2004-06-29T19:33:20Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I figure we can do it like yanking the band-aid off real fast, or _slowly_ pulling it off over a decade or so. Of course I advocated never going in the first place, which would have saved us a ton of headache, but that’s water under the bridge. The best thing we can do now, is get the hell out as fast as we can, and realize that there are no easy choices, just worse, and worse then worse. So, you didn’t care about Iraqis when they were suffering in Husseini clutches, and you still don’t care about them even if they were to go through Civil war. At least you are consistent. And removing band-aids slowly and carefully is what good doctors do. Yanking band-aids off is sadistic. Decade long healing sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/30 "2004-06-29T19:59:08Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So, you didn’t care about Iraqis when they were suffering in Husseini clutches, and you still don’t care about them even if they were to go through Civil war. At least you are consistent. Pretty much, but let me elaborate. It happens to be a depressing fact of life that people all over the world suffer in a plethora of ways. People are being brutally ruled all over the globe, just like they’re starving all over the globe, and dying of disease all over the globe. In a perfect world, the global community would be able to prevent this sort of thing, but of course such things are impossible to prevent. Of course I care about the Iraqis getting slaughtered. Same goes for the current genocide going on in Sudan. I found it horrible that the Taliban oppressed woman, and ruled people with an iron fist in the name of religion. I’m saddened by all the people dying in droves of AIDS in Africa. Do you see the pattern here? There is _a ton_ of wrong and injustice in this world, and still in light of all that, I’ll be the first to say I could give one shit about the Iraqis. I don’t care, simply because _I can’t care_, I have other things to concern myself with. I’m more concerned for my friends and family here in NY who barely escaped death on 9/11. I’m more concerned with one day having a family and making sure my children don’t live in a police state, or under the threat of terror. The iraqis are a world away from me, and frankly as long as they don’t pose a threat (and they sure as hell didn’t, don’t even fucking go there), I say let them deal with the cards that life tragically dealt them, it’s a shame, but oh well. For the meantime, we need to worry a bit more about what’s happening inside our borders, and get our own affairs in order. Then, and only, then can we actually be in a position to lend some actual help. > [@](#): > > And removing band-aids slowly and carefully is what good doctors do. Yanking band-aids off is sadistic. Funny, I thought drawing things out long and slow was considered more sadistic. > [@](#): > > Decade long healing sounds about right. Not if I’m paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/31 "2004-06-29T20:06:08Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think your mouth is the window, but your spirit is the light. I do think you’re God. Damn, **'luc** , you were just given The Mother of All Sig Lines, _and you’re not using it?_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/32 "2004-06-29T20:45:07Z")
**Lib** , you and **Elucidator** seem be at peace, so I’ll say no more on that. > [@Brutus](#): > > Since the ‘Loyal Opposition’ spends so much frigging time bitching and moaning, one would think that at least the outline of a plan would occasionally surface. Waving your hands about and vaguely mumbling something about ‘UN’ or ‘tax the rich’ doesn’t really strike me as a well thought out plan. Well, when some fucker is putting our country in a hole, the first thing I’ll do is yell at him, “QUIT DIGGING!” It’s inappropriate for him to keep digging until I come up with an alternate plan. We’re not in a situation in which Bush responded to a terrible problem with the only possible response. We’ve been saying all along what to do, and you’ve been reading and belittling our suggestions all along. Bush keeps fucking up, and maybe we don’t have an immediate plan to salvage something out of each of his new fuckups, but that doesn’t mean we can’t criticize. The first thing we should do is get his crew of corrupt cronies out of office, so they can’t keep throwing new absurd problems at us. That should give us the breathing room to fix the things he’s already fucked up. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/33 "2004-06-29T20:53:43Z")
Isn’t that the same thing we did in Cuba after the Spanish American war? And we all know how well THAT turned out, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/34 "2004-06-29T21:02:49Z")
“So how’s that workin’ for ya?” — Dr. Phil 😃 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/35 "2004-06-29T22:52:18Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > It happens to be a depressing fact of life that people all over the world suffer in a plethora of ways. I don’t understand that line of reasoning: we can’t do everything, so we should do - nothing? But, like I said, you are consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/36 "2004-06-29T23:25:44Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I don’t understand that line of reasoning: we can’t do everything, so we should do - nothing? Have you ever passed a bear in the street, and just for the hell of it, **not** taken a poke at him? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/37 "2004-06-30T00:46:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Damn, **'luc** , you were just given The Mother of All Sig Lines, _and you’re not using it?_ I’m mostly kinda agnostic, but I’m not pressing my luck. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/38 "2004-06-30T02:51:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I don’t understand that line of reasoning: we can’t do everything, so we should do - nothing? > > But, like I said, you are consistent. Maybe we should look at what’s wrong with the world, and consider which problems are solvable with the resources we’re willing to commit. The problem with Iraq was that, even if Saddam & Sons had had the courtesy to have heart attacks last March 17 and immediately die, followed by the entire Iraqi military laying down its arms and inviting us into Baghdad, it still would have likely been insoluble. Sunnis, Shi’ites, Kurds - we _still_ have no idea what to do about the divisions in Iraqi society. I felt, and feel, bad for the 25 million of Iraq, but sixteen months ago, I couldn’t see the point in risking making their lot even worse than it was then. And in that endeavor, we’re on the verge of succeeding - for it is the rare dictatorship (Pol Pot, anyone?) that’s actually worse for those living in a country than the breakdown of civil order. Now, take Burma. They’re ruled by a military junta, but they have an elected leader (whom the junta usually keeps under house arrest) who’s recognized as such by most of the world. We could have gone in there, restored a legitimate government to the reins of power, and let them start running things right away, instead of having to build up a democracy from scratch in Iraq with the deck stacked against us. Even humanitarians should be realistic. As Jesus - Bush’s favorite political philosopher, remember? - said, “Would any of you think of building a tower without first sitting down and calculating the cost, to see whether he could afford to finish it? Otherwise, when he has laid his foundation and then is not able to complete it, all the onlookers will laugh at him.” (Luke 14:28-29, NEB.) Let’s laugh Bush out of office, OK? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/39 "2004-06-30T11:51:44Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I don’t understand that line of reasoning: we can’t do everything, so we should do - nothing? Actually my line of reasoning is that nothing is getting done specifically because we’re trying to do everything. To be honest what really bothers me is that we’re borrowing some serious money for this stupid war, and we’re not getting a single tangible benefit from it. I find it pretty sad that we still haven’t bought better working radios for NY firefighters post 9/11, yet we magically pull hundreds of billions out of our ass for this war. Here’s a wacky idea, let’s use that money for healthcare! Well said **RTF** ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675/40 "2004-06-30T12:07:19Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Lib** , you and **Elucidator** seem be at peace, so I’ll say no more on that. > > Well, when some fucker is putting our country in a hole, the first thing I’ll do is yell at him, “QUIT DIGGING!” It’s inappropriate for him to keep digging until I come up with an alternate plan. It’s like trying to read tea leaves, deciphering your ‘plan’. What the fucking poophell do you mean by ‘QUIT DIGGING’? Specifics are needed, no matter how much you and your kameraden want to act like fucking drama queens. So far, **The Plan** , as put for by the ‘Loyal Opposition’ here at SDMB, is: President Bush issues a FLASH priority message to all US forces in Iraq: QUIT DIGGING! Combat engineers look at each other, a bit confused. A rather sheepish looking Marine stops digging a foxhole, slinks away, whistling the Marine Corp Hymn. Pilots just sort of chuckle and try to find some cool looking shades. The world collectively says, ‘WTF?’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bremers-97-theses-or-the-madness-of-king-george-vol-2/252675.md?page=3)