# Brewed, Distilled, or Fermented? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 30, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106 "2006-12-30T12:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/1 "2006-12-30T12:17:40Z")
Is there a difference between these terms? Also, if beer is brewed, how are liquors made? Wines? Champagne? ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/2 "2006-12-30T12:41:57Z")
Liquor is fermented, then distilled, wine is fermented, champagne is wine with bubbles. Side fact, Champagne is only from the Champagne region of France, (much as bourbon is only from Kentucky). Other products are ‘sparkling wine’. Fermentation uses yeast to break down sugars into alcohols (or carbon dioxide in the case of bread). Yeasties eat sugars and secrete the good stuff. Wine is fermented twice but the bubbles are not collected in the second fermentation. Beer and sparkling wine are fermented twice and the bubbles are collected. (see Méthode Champenoise or bottle fermentation). Distillation of liquors involves fermentation, then conversion to steam (usually) and recollection into a purer product. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/3 "2006-12-30T13:01:27Z")
[QUOTE=FilmGeek] …Beer and sparkling wine are fermented twice and the bubbles are collected (see Méthode Champenoise or bottle fermentation)… [/QUOTE] a) So, are beer and sparkling wine more closely related than one might think? b) Extra Credit: For wines, to what do terms “bordeaux” and “clarot” refer? There is a “Fawlty Towers” episode where John Cleese is reminded a Bordeaux is a Clarot. The former sounds like a town in France. I wager these terms refer to specific vineyards, perhaps? Thanks, FilmGeek…you are wise in the ways of the grape (and wheat, malt, and hops)! - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/4 "2006-12-30T13:12:29Z")
Bordeaux is a region (county) of France Burgundy is another and Champagne is yet another According to this [Claret - definition of claret by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/claret) Claret is :- 1. a. A dry red wine produced in the Bordeaux region of France. – b. A similar wine made elsewhere. 2. A dark or grayish purplish red to dark purplish pink. Actually I would just reckon that it is a red wine ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/5 "2006-12-30T13:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] a) So, are beer and sparkling wine more closely related than one might think? b) Extra Credit: For wines, to what do terms “bordeaux” and “clarot” refer? There is a “Fawlty Towers” episode where John Cleese is reminded a Bordeaux is a Clarot. The former sounds like a town in France. I wager these terms refer to specific vineyards, perhaps? Thanks, FilmGeek…you are wise in the ways of the grape (and wheat, malt, and hops)! - Jinx [/QUOTE] A claret is a light, “clear” red wine, to the best of my knowledge. I’m not aware of the origins of the term. A Bordeaux is the varietal wine for which the area around the city of Bordeaux, on the southern Atlantic coast of France about 80% of the way down towards Spain, is famous. Likewise, a Burgundy is the fortified, deep red wine produced in the area of France named Burgundy, best defined as the east-central inland area opposite the Swiss border. (For the record, a Port is a similar wine produced in the area around Oporto in Portugal.) There are literally dozens of varietal wines known by their place of origin, many but far from all being French regional designations. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/6 "2006-12-30T13:16:21Z")
Beer and sparkling wine are quite closely related in their method of production. When yeast attacks sugar, it produces alcohol and carbon dioxide. In the case of both (traditionally brewed) beer and sparkling wine, the bottles are sealed tightly\* with a prescribed amount of unfermented sugars and yeast in the bottle, allowing for "secondary fermentation (or “bottle conditioning”) to take place. This produces the bubbles. “Claret” is a general term encompassing a broad range of red wine. “Bordeaux” is a regional name, regularly used as a style on labels until the French got uppity a few years ago and cracked down. Legend has it that champagne was invented when some monks had a problem with unwanted secondary fermentation occurring in their bottles of still wine, resulting in corks popping because of the pressure. They attempted to solve the problem by tying the corks down with wire (as champagne corks are tied down to this day). Until then, nobody had heard of sparkling wine, until one day a monk, who happened to be blind, sampled the results of one of these wired-shut bottles. He ran to the priest, saying, “Father! I am drinking stars!” ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/7 "2006-12-30T14:40:25Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] A claret is a light, “clear” red wine, to the best of my knowledge. I’m not aware of the origins of the term. [/QUOTE] Yeah - except you can get heavy clarets > [@](#): > > A Bordeaux is the varietal wine for which the area around the city of Bordeaux, on the southern Atlantic coast of France about 80% of the way down towards Spain, is famous. From the province of Bordeaux. (Bordeaux is a town/city that is the adminstrative centre of a province/county called … Bordeaux) > [@](#): > > Likewise, a Burgundy is the fortified, deep red wine produced in the area of France named Burgundy, best defined as the east-central inland area opposite the Swiss border. (For the record, a Port is a similar wine produced in the area around Oporto in Portugal.) If you ever get any fortified Burgundy, then you have been conned, Burgundy is just another province/county. Wines from Bordeaux tend to have bottles with ‘shoulders’, and a Burgundy has a sloping neck (like a bird). The contents are pretty much the same - fermented grape juice and definitely _ **not fortified** _. > [@](#): > > There are literally dozens of varietal wines known by their place of origin, many but far from all being French regional designations. You get minor regions and Chateaux, the true origins of many grapes are rather obscure - there was an old joke about driving a truckload three times around the winery to establish its origin. Realistically the majority consumed in France is vin ordinaire - which can be very pleasant. No way is Burgundy fortified, off hand I cannot think of any French fortified wine, well Dubonnet perhaps. I’m not much of a wine buff, I tend to go for quantity rather than quality, but I live close enough to know the rudiments. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/8 "2006-12-30T15:07:08Z")
Brewing is simply a more generalized term for the production of beverages, which may include fermentation (beer), or not (tea). I believe that the use of “brewing” to cover infusions without fermentation (tea) is much rarer than the use to cover beverage production which at some point (after steeping or infusion) involves fermentation (such as soy sauce). ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/9 "2006-12-30T16:27:14Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] b) Extra Credit: For wines, to what do terms “bordeaux” and “clarot” refer? There is a “Fawlty Towers” episode where John Cleese is reminded a Bordeaux is a Clarot. The former sounds like a town in France. I wager these terms refer to specific vineyards, perhaps? [/QUOTE] And so it is. In the UK, red wines from Bordeaux were called “claret.” It comes from the French term _vin claret_, meaning a light colored wine. Around 1600, the distinction ceased and “claret” meant any red wine from Bordeaux. Clarets were often heavy wines and required a long aging (the 19th century English nobleman would buy bottles he planned to use in 20 years), but now it’s just interchangeable with “bordeaux,” the official name. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/10 "2006-12-30T17:02:10Z")
Just to clarify (heh) and expound on this a bit. Fermentation is the process of sugar being transformed into ethanol and carbon dioxide by yeast. Different yeasts produce different flavors, but they all do the fermentation thing. For beer (and sparkling wine), there is an initial fermentation process where the brewed fluid is combined with yeast. In the case of traditional beer, this fluid is a combination of malted barley, water and hops. Yeast is added in a large container and they go to town like crazy producing that yummy alcohol and that pesky CO2. At this stage, if the container was completely sealed the pressure would build up too high and the container would explode. So there is usually some sort of pressure valve that releases CO2 but doesn’t allow spoiling bacteria and such from the air to get in. In beer making, this process can take 1-2 weeks or so until the yeast has consumed all the available sugar and begins to die off. At this point you basically have very flat beer with a bunch of dead yeast. This concoction is filtered and then mixed with a very specific amount of simple (table) sugar. It is then sealed into bottles with caps. Whatever remaining live yeast is in there converts the added sugar to a relatively tiny bit of alcohol and CO2. Because the bottle is sealed this extra CO2 is dissolved into the beer which makes it bubbly. The sealed bottles don’t explode because you’ve added only the correct amount of sugar. If you add too much you might get ‘bottle bombs’ which do explode. If you add too little, you’ll get flat beer. ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/11 "2006-12-30T17:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] b) Extra Credit: For wines, to what do terms “bordeaux” and “clarot” refer? There is a “Fawlty Towers” episode where John Cleese is reminded a Bordeaux is a Clarot. The former sounds like a town in France. I wager these terms refer to specific vineyards, perhaps? [/QUOTE] Bordeaux is a region in France. Claret is what the English call red wine, usually from Bordeaux. There are 5 main varietals used in Bordeaux red wines - Malbec, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, and Petit Verdot. Most Bordeaux’s are a blend, with the Right Bank using more Merlot and the Left Bank using more Cabernet Sauvignon. There are also white Bordeaux varietals - Semillon, Sauvignon Blanc, and Muscadelle. Burgundy is most definitely NOT a fortified wine. If it’s red it’s almost certainly a Pinot Noir, and if it’s white, a Chardonnay. (And Burgundy is just another growing region in France.) [QUOTE=FilmGeek] Wine is fermented twice but the bubbles are not collected in the second fermentation. . [/QUOTE] Not all wines are fermented twice. Many only go through primary fermentation. Some are subjected to a secondary - usually malolactic, to create a softer wine. If you ever have a Chardonnay with a ‘buttery’ smell or taste, it most likely went through ML, which produces diacetyl, also used in the artificial flavorings of microwaved popcorn. Red wine and white wine are made a bit differently as red wines are allowed contact with grape skins (maceration) before, during or after fermentation in order to get their color, tannins, etc. I’m not seeing the close relation to beer making and wine or champagne making. At no point during wine making (unless it’s Madeira which is heated) is there any boiling aka ‘brewing’ taking place. Maybe I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Myglaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Myglaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myglaren)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/12 "2006-12-30T17:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > **TLD** > Legend has it that champagne was invented when some monks had a problem with unwanted secondary fermentation occurring in their bottles of still wine, resulting in corks popping because of the pressure. They attempted to solve the problem by tying the corks down with wire (as champagne corks are tied down to this day). Until then, nobody had heard of sparkling wine, until one day a monk, who happened to be blind, sampled the results of one of these wired-shut bottles. He ran to the priest, saying, “Father! I am drinking stars!” Lovely anecdote, hadn’t heard that one before. And don’t you just love it when the French get uppity! ---
**Author:** ![BunnyTVS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/13 "2006-12-30T17:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] There are literally dozens of varietal wines known by their place of origin, many but far from all being French regional designations. [/QUOTE] Just a quick additional point for those new to drinking wine. Most wines from outside Europe, and a growing number from _inside_ use what is called **varietal labelling**. This simply means that the name of the grapes used to make the wine are on the front of the bottle. Common red grapes: Cabernet Sauvignon Shiraz/syrah Merlot Zinfandel Grenache/Garnacha Common white grapes: Chardonnay Semillon Sauvignon Blanc Riesling Chenin Blanc So in general if you enjoyed a certain bottle of Zinf, but don’t want to buy the same again, it gives you a starting point. Another useful guide, at least in the UK, is the alpha-numeric rating that many supermarkets use. White wines are numbered from 1 to 9. 1 being very dry (chardonnay), and 9 being _very_ sweet (trockenbeerenauslese - made from rotten grapes - a must try). Reds are lettered A to G. A are the light reds such as beaujolais (Which I find very enjoyable chilled), while G’s are your rich full bodied Cabernets (which give me terrible heartburn - pity). ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/14 "2006-12-30T19:57:44Z")
[QUOTE=Myglaren] Lovely anecdote, hadn’t heard that one before. And don’t you just love it when the French get uppity! [/QUOTE] This was discussed on QI this week. In fact the first sparkling wines were produced in England. This was because we had the technology to produce the extra strong glass bottles to withstand the pressure, and ( believe it or not ) better corks. But it was the French who invented the wire “cages” that enclose the corks ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brewed-distilled-or-fermented/386106/15 "2006-12-31T00:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog] Legend has it that champagne was invented when some monks had a problem with unwanted secondary fermentation occurring in their bottles of still wine, resulting in corks popping because of the pressure. They attempted to solve the problem by tying the corks down with wire (as champagne corks are tied down to this day). Until then, nobody had heard of sparkling wine, until one day a monk, who happened to be blind, sampled the results of one of these wired-shut bottles. He ran to the priest, saying, “Father! I am drinking stars!” [/QUOTE] In most versions of that story, the star-drinking monk was none other than [Dom Pérignon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_P%C3%A9rignon_%28person%29), a name [familiar to champagne lovers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_P%C3%A9rignon_%28wine%29) to this day. [Although as **Rayne Man** says, the Brits had already beaten him to the punch :p. Plus, the real DP wasn’t blind]. The term **claret** has different uses in different countries: it’s mainly used in Britain, where it specifically means “a red wine from Bordeaux” (hence John Cleese’s embarrassment in _Fawlty Towers_). This usage became so ingrained that it’s now an EU protected name (rather bizarrely IMHO, since the term “claret” isn’t used in its country of origin – France – except for the export market!). In other English-speaking countries, “claret” may have referred to refer to many styles of red wine, but both the [US](http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/ng.asp?n=62631-eu-us-wine-producers) and [Australia](http://www.wineaustralia.com/australia/Default.aspx?tabid=251) have agreed not to use the term for any wine exported to the EU. The [Wikipedia entry for “claret”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claret) is pretty accurate IMHO. [QUOTE=FRDE] No way is Burgundy fortified, off hand I cannot think of any French fortified wine, well Dubonnet perhaps. [/QUOTE] There’s a whole category called [vin doux naturel](http://www.answers.com/topic/vin-doux-naturel) (VDN); the wines are fortified in a way similar to Port, but they’re not well-known outside France. [Banyuls](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banyuls) is probably the best-known VDN _appellation_. There are also styles such as [Pineau des Charentes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineau_des_Charentes), in which the brandy is added to the grape “must” _before the latter has fermented_, so its status as a “fortified _wine_” might be disputed(i.e. it’s certainly fortified, but is it really a _wine_?). [QUOTE=psycat90] I’m not seeing the close relation to beer making and wine or champagne making. At no point during wine making (unless it’s Madeira which is heated) is there any boiling aka ‘brewing’ taking place. Maybe I’m missing something. [/QUOTE] I’d say that’s pretty much it – I don’t think you’re missing anything. Brewing involves boiling, then fermentation(s). Winemaking involves just (!) the fermentations. Beer and champagne **do** share that extra step of final fermentation in the bottle to give the “fizz”. [In fact, many homebrewers of beer use champagne bottles with the attending corks and wire “cages”.]