# Brexit and the Irish Border Conundrum **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185 "2017-09-24T16:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/61 "2017-10-03T20:02:12Z")
Fantasy time - Another option: Ireland invades and conquers the UK. The border issue vanishes. Brexit is no more. As part of greater Ireland, everyone is back in the EU. Gotta think outside the box. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/62 "2017-10-03T20:58:19Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Fantasy time - Another option: Ireland invades and conquers the UK. The border issue vanishes. Brexit is no more. As part of greater Ireland, everyone is back in the EU. > > Gotta think outside the box. I vote for this. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/63 "2017-10-04T00:46:32Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Fantasy time - Another option: Ireland invades and conquers the UK. The border issue vanishes. Brexit is no more. As part of greater Ireland, everyone is back in the EU. > > Gotta think outside the box. 😃 That could be quite funny. However, it would be nice if Ireland gave us all time to write lots of sad songs about being taken over and colonised. Edited to add: it would even make the DUP happy. Well, happy or confused or both. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/64 "2017-10-04T09:38:14Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Fantasy time - Another option: Ireland invades and conquers the UK. The border issue vanishes. Brexit is no more. As part of greater Ireland, everyone is back in the EU. If Ireland were to try, it would swiftly find itself a wasteland. That solves the problem too. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/65 "2017-10-04T11:29:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Nice try. People like you equated wanting control of immigration with racism. And people saw through that. I’m disappointed to see that you still equate the two. More that people like you couched xenophobia as “wanting control of immigration”. Consider the fearmongering language used to make the argument by the Leave campaign: the aforementioned rape gangs claim, the NHS being overrun by “millions of Turks”, the posters of refugees and persistent references to them as “swarms”. That strongly indicates that the argument wasn’t being made on a strong rational basis. And, ironically, Britain is still as likely as not to end up with free movement of workers in the end. So much for controlling immigration. > [@](#): > > But it doesn’t matter. The referendum took place and for good or ill the decision has been made. Either you respect democracy or you do not. I do so love this argument. It basically says “We won on the basis of lies and we want to avoid any accountability for them so no backsies!”. Like the people crowing about Trump’s victory, you don’t care about the consequences, no matter how dire; you only care that you won. Except that we all lost; it’s just that some people haven’t realised it yet. But if democratic decisions can never be reversed, one might as well argue that the UK agreed to join the EU and therefore that decision should never be changed. > [@Ludovic](#): > > I sort of agree that once the decision was made to hold a binding referendum requiring just a simple majority that the results should be respected. However, I think that such a weighty decision should have required a supermajority, not a margin that could have swung either way depending on the weather and the latest sound bites. The referendum wasn’t “binding”; it was “advisory”. And given that the Leave campaign was based on lies (the oft-touted £350m figure), false promises (that the government would cover all areas currently receiving EU funding), undeliverable aspirations (that the UK would be able to negotiate more favourable trade deals with the EU and other countries) and meaningless phrases (more “sovereignty” and “democracy”), requiring the decision to be reconsidered on the basis of reality isn’t “disrespecting democracy”; it’s applying basic common sense. If I ask an estate agent to sell my five-bedroom house in Mayfair and the only offer he gets is £20 and a packet of crisps, the logical response is not “I agreed to sell the house and house sale means house sale” and then to send in David Davis to negotiate on the flavour of the crisps. Yet that is the kind of incisive argument being made with regard to Brexit. We were promised that there would be more money for the UK, a stronger negotiating position, a better business environment, more control of our borders and more say in the government for the people. What we’re getting is drastic cuts in economically deprived areas and agriculture, a greatly weakened negotiating position for business deals (including having to now compete with the EU, as the recent trip to Japan demonstrated), increased costs to manufacturers and a reduced level of influence in London’s financial sector, potentially no change to border controls (and likely chaos at the Irish border), and the Tory government derogating to itself all sorts of new powers and bypassing Parliament to do it. We’re also getting higher food prices for poorer quality food, greatly weakened workers’ rights, and significant cutbacks in access to research projects and foreign students by higher education institutions. But why should we reconsider when things are going so well? Incidentally I note the IrExit campaign is already kicking off - I’ve already seen articles claiming that “the EU Commission can declare things illegal just because it doesn’t like them” and citing the Catalonian referendum, when in fact the EU Commission merely observed that the Catalonian referendum was illegal under Spanish law. Already the lies are cranking up… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/66 "2017-10-04T12:19:48Z")
Perhaps, if they wanted to complicate things for no reason and keep the boarders open, just have a website and smart phone app where people could just indicate their intended crossing, even regular repeated crossings, or apply form some form of free passage for those who need to make that trip frequently, with computer stations/ and ‘telephone’ assistance if needed at the crossings for those without the ability to do it themselves online. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/67 "2017-10-04T12:34:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > More that people like you couched xenophobia as “wanting control of immigration”. No. There’s a difference, and Remain refused to accept that. > [@](#): > > Consider the fearmongering language used to make the argument by the Leave campaign: the aforementioned rape gangs claim Which was actually true. The Asian gang in the UK and the immigrant gang in Germany for two. > [@](#): > > Like the people crowing about Trump’s victory, you don’t care about the consequences, no matter how dire; Not true. > [@](#): > > you only care that you won. Ahem. I was expecting a Remain victory. > [@](#): > > Except that we all lost; it’s just that some people haven’t realised it yet. Time will tell. > [@](#): > > But if democratic decisions can never be reversed, one might as well argue that the UK agreed to join the EU and therefore that decision should never be changed. Once we’ve had some time outside the EU then feel free to start a campaign to rejoin it. > [@](#): > > And given that the Leave campaign was based on lies As was Remain. > [@](#): > > We were promised that there would be more money for the UK, a stronger negotiating position, a better business environment, more control of our borders and more say in the government for the people. That was the Remain side; what did Leave promise? > [@](#): > > What we’re getting is drastic cuts in economically deprived areas and agriculture In case you hadn’t notice, we have yet to leave. > [@](#): > > a greatly weakened negotiating position for business deals (including having to now compete with the EU, as the recent trip to Japan demonstrated) You mean just like the £500M Aston-Martin deal the UK won in August? > [@](#): > > increased costs to manufacturers Cite? > [@](#): > > and a reduced level of influence in London’s financial sector, Cite? Etc. Either you believe in and respect democracy or you don’t. Are you really in the latter group? Or is democracy only fine when the result is the one you want? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/68 "2017-10-04T13:00:20Z")
> [@quartz](#): > > if ireland were to try, it would swiftly find itself a wasteland. That solves the problem too. hrrumph, i say! Hrrumph! We’ll have none of that! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/69 "2017-10-05T14:33:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No. There’s a difference, and Remain refused to accept that. I cited examples. You ignored them. > [@](#): > > Which was actually true. The Asian gang in the UK and the immigrant gang in Germany for two. Do keep a strong grip on those straws you’re grasping. The connection between the EU and those incidents is non-existent. I’m surprised you didn’t manage to work the Croydon riots in there somewhere. > [@](#): > > Not true. It certainly seems like it’s true, from your responses. > [@](#): > > Once we’ve had some time outside the EU then feel free to start a campaign to rejoin it. Or I could start a campaign not to leave it in the first place now that it’s clearer that what was promised cannot be delivered and that the government is woefully unprepared to negotiate on behalf of the country. I’m still represented in Parliament and the Government haven’t quite managed to seize full unilateral power yet (though not for lack of trying lately), so in theory I’m perfectly within my rights to attempt to influence policy. > [@](#): > > As was Remain. Again - I gave you specific examples of Leave campaign lies. You ignored them. What did the Remain campaign lie about? > [@](#): > > That was the Remain side; what did Leave promise? Much as I enjoy the occasional “no u” response, this is nonsense. Leave promised all those things. > [@](#): > > In case you hadn’t notice, we have yet to leave. I have noticed. And apart from the fact that we’re already seeing the changes, the argument that “We are perfectly safe because we haven’t driven off the cliff edge yet, therefore we don’t need to turn away from it” is not one that inspires confidence. Enjoy your post-Brexit [limited choice](http://uk.businessinsider.com/ex-sainsburys-ceo-justin-king-brexit-effect-supermarkets-2017-7) of [overpriced](https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9562) [questionable meat](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/29/hormonal-beef-chlorine-chicken-could-coming-uk-trade-deal-us/). > [@](#): > > You mean just like the £500M Aston-Martin deal the UK won in August? You mean like the recent Bombardier mess? > [@](#): > > Cite? Well apart from the fact that the manufacturing sector came out overwhelmingly for remaining in the UK, there’s [the effect on the UK auto industry overall](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/04/uk-car-industry-facing-an-utterly-demoralising-brexit). I mean, [will they even be able to get the parts without significant tariffs](https://www.ft.com/content/b56d0936-6ae0-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa)? And there’s Smiffy’s going already, and Lush, and the general fact that a lot of Northern industries have their largest non-domestic customer base on the Continent. > [@](#): > > Cite? I work in the financial sector and see a lot of this directly, but I don’t expect you to take by word for it (and obviously there are things I cannot say, so I’ll stick to public information). But consider all the large multi-nationals that are planning to move or already moving jobs out of London because of Brexit, including Barclays, Deutsche Bank, HSBC and Goldman Sachs. Main beneficiaries are Frankfurt, Brussels, Paris and Dublin. At the next level down, a lot of financial firms are waiting for more information on what the terms of Brexit will be before taking any action but that does not mean there will not be negative consequences. > [@](#): > > Etc. Etc. indeed. This has been hashed out - with cites - in other threads on the subject. > [@](#): > > Either you believe in and respect democracy or you don’t. Are you really in the latter group? Or is democracy only fine when the result is the one you want? Either you understand what an advisory referendum is or you don’t. Are you really in the latter group? Or is democracy only fine when the result is the one you want, at which point everything is set in stone and democracy can never be exercised again? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/70 "2017-10-05T15:44:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I cited examples. You ignored them. No I didn’t. That there were racists who were on the Leave side is incontrovertible. But the Leave side itself was not racist. And Bombardier is nothing to do with Brexit. As for the rest of your rubbish, we’ve been through this before and I’ll just say that you have a very different perspective. Time will tell who is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/71 "2017-10-09T19:34:30Z")
The most authoritative study on the issue concludes: “Post-Brexit invisible border is impossible.” The Irish customs department says “customs posts will be needed” between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland. [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/72 "2017-10-09T21:33:08Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > The most authoritative study on the issue concludes: > > “Post-Brexit invisible border is impossible.” They would say that, wouldn’t they? I’m not saying they’re wrong, mind, but they’re not an unbiased source. Also note near the end: > [@Guardian article](#): > > The ORC said the paper was “an internal working paper” considering “possible administrative implications post Brexit”. It said it predates “the many developments and papers” since Article 50 was triggered and other papers have been written since. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/73 "2017-10-10T04:10:49Z")
For the first time since, Henry II, Ireland faces the prospect of being an actual honest to goodness foreign country to England/Britain/UK. Before that it’s been the commonwealth, then the Ireland Act. Then the EEC/EU, some legal links have always remained. Unlikely anymore. And they think it sucks. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/74 "2017-10-10T05:59:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > For the first time since, Henry II, Ireland faces the prospect of being an actual honest to goodness foreign country to England/Britain/UK. > Before that it’s been the commonwealth, then the Ireland Act. Then the EEC/EU, some legal links have always remained. Unlikely anymore. > > And they think it sucks. Here’s a hint: something to do with six counties. Ring any bells? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/75 "2017-10-10T06:12:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Incidentally I note the IrExit campaign is already kicking off - I’ve already seen articles claiming that “the EU Commission can declare things illegal just because it doesn’t like them” and citing the Catalonian referendum, when in fact the EU Commission merely observed that the Catalonian referendum was illegal under Spanish law. Already the lies are cranking up… There is **no** IrExit campaign in Ireland. None whatsoever, at least of any substance. Even the far left parties that praised Brexit as a “working class victory” in the immediate aftermath of the election have gone all quiet now that the full scale of the disaster it will be has become impossible to ignore. I predicted at the time - while Brexit supporters were claiming this would inspire exit movements all over the EU - that the exact opposite would happen: the UK would make such a hames of it that support for leaving would _fall_ in other countries. Pro-leave parties don’t seem to have done very well in national elections since then, so it seems I may have been right. Of course it remains to be seen how bad Brexit actually gets, but there’s nothing to inspire any optimism. And I am saying this as, some Dopers might recall, a person from the left Eurosceptic tradition myself. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/76 "2017-10-10T07:43:24Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > For the first time since, Henry II, Ireland faces the prospect of being an actual honest to goodness foreign country to England/Britain/UK. > Before that it’s been the commonwealth, then the Ireland Act. Then the EEC/EU, some legal links have always remained. Unlikely anymore. > > And they think it sucks. The Ireland Act is still in force and the UK has made it plain that it intends that to continue. And, as Ruadh pointed out, what’s bugging us in Ireland is the border. We’ve never liked that. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/77 "2017-10-10T08:04:11Z")
The operative part of the Ireland Act 1949 is > [@](#): > > Republic of Ireland not a foreign country. > > (1)It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly. In 1949, this was easy. It was also tolerably achievable in 1972 when both the UK and Ireland joined the EEC, ECSC, Euratom. Nowadays the section is basically unworkable in light of Brexit and the massive amounts of EU law that exist. Whatever the UK and Irish Governments may say in public. Ireland will either i) be an actual foreign country to the UK, with the massive attendant economic damage that brings, it ii) be an anchor by which EU law, rules and regulations continue to effect the UK. Neither situation is ideal. And would happen 6 counties or no 6 counties. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/78 "2017-10-10T11:13:06Z")
I think the “not a foreign country in law” provision has as much to do with the position of people of Irish descent in the UK as with trade. It was no easier to disentangle whether they should count as foreigners or not in 1949 than it is now or had been in 1922. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/79 "2017-10-10T11:30:45Z")
So, say an Irish Company wishes to setup in the UK. Should it be considered a foreign or a local cooperation? An Irish Company wishes to set up a passenger ferry service between Liverpool and Belfast; can they? EU rules on Cabotage are pretty clear, but the UK will not offer such things post Brexit. Irish farmers sell mainly to the UK. Irish beef and milk follow EU standards like the UK does. When said standards inevitably diverge, will Ireland still be able to sell to the UK? Will they have to get a waiver? The question of trade are major questions. Each of the above will need specific legislation or rules to cover it if you hope for it to function smoothly. Which will be based on years of detailed negotiations. And of course the EU won’t necessarily be too happy about one of its members getting privileged market access to the UK. Now multiply the above by 1000 cases and senarios and you get an appreciation of the questions to be decided. ETA: In 1949, Ireland was part of the Sterling Area anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/80 "2017-10-10T12:11:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No I didn’t. That there were racists who were on the Leave side is incontrovertible. But the Leave side itself was not racist. This is true. Unfortunately the racists were the most vocal side of the campaign. > [@](#): > > And Bombardier is nothing to do with Brexit. But it is everything to do with challenging the assertion that the UK will automatically be able to get awesome business deals with the US due to the “special relationship”. The US will do what’s best for the US, the EU will do what’s best for the EU, and the UK will have very little leverage in negotiating with - or competing with - either. > [@](#): > > As for the rest of your rubbish, we’ve been through this before and I’ll just say that you have a very different perspective. Time will tell who is correct. Some of this stuff is _already happening_. UK universities are already being excluded from ERASMUS research projects. The £60m/year this involves is largely budget-neutral -the money that comes in spent on the projects, so it doesn’t affect the bottom line of the universities involved if it goes away - but it significantly reduces the drawing power of the universities, and ERASMUS is only one area of joint higher-education project funding. The universities are already taking a recruitment hit. Time is already telling. > [@ruadh](#): > > There is \*\*no \*\*IrExit campaign in Ireland. That’s gratifying to know. Now if only they’d get off my Facebook feed… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185.md?page=5)