# Brexit and the Irish Border Conundrum **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185 "2017-09-24T16:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/101 "2017-11-07T23:18:38Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [Ian Paisley Jr urges Northern Irish citizens to apply for Republic of Ireland passports | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/unionist-ian-paisley-jr-mp-constituents-apply-republic-of-ireland-eire-passports-a7102761.html) That article is statistic-free with regards to passport numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/102 "2017-11-07T23:22:32Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That article is statistic-free with regards to passport numbers. It is however Ian Paisley Jr advising people to get Irish passports, which y’know… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/103 "2017-11-08T10:56:18Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > That would be [Drummully, Co. Monaghan](http://www.thejournal.ie/monaghan-villagers-left-beyond-the-law-by-garda-cutbacks-284513-Nov2011/). That’s the bunny - amusingly named the [Drummully Polyp](https://www.cntraveler.com/story/irelands-drummully-polyp-is-not-a-sea-cucumber-its-an-island). They’re going to be absolutely stuffed if the border goes “hard”. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/104 "2017-11-09T06:27:15Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > People in NI and Britain entitled to an Irish passport who go on regular Spain/Greece etc. sun holidays or whatever would be mad not to apply if there is anything more than minor inconvenience attached to British Passport holder travel in the EU post-Brexit. > I haven’t held a passport in a number of years because I’m not a regular holiday maker but people in these isles have long since taken it for granted they can flit to wherever in the EU in a streamlined fashion. Just wait til they discover they can’t stuff unlimited bottles of booze in their suitcases on the way back from Torremolinas. That’s when the proverbial’s going to _really_ hit the fan. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/105 "2017-11-09T08:29:24Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Just wait til they discover they can’t stuff unlimited bottles of booze in their suitcases on the way back from Torremolinas. That’s when the proverbial’s going to _really_ hit the fan. Duty-free allowances would be entirely a matter for the UK government after Brexit. There are some total-free-trade enthusiasts among the Brexiteers who probably don’t hold with import tariffs and duties anyway, and seem to imagine that lowering them at will is going to solve all our economic problems. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/106 "2017-11-10T17:16:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That’s extremely wishful thinking. > > We’ll see. I do think things will be tougher in the short term, but what happens in the longer term is anyone’s guess. A lot of Brexit voters think that Britain will be better off. Time will tell. +1000. Whether Brexit is going to make Britain better off ultimately is a question of values, not fact. It depends how you value ethnic homogeneity and ethno-tribal solidarity vs. economics. Lots of people, if forced to choose between “living in a homogenous, ethnically English nation that’s 20% poorer on average” or “living a multicultural, cosmopolitan country that’s 20% richer” would choose the former. (Never mind that the actual economic impact, from the forecasts I’ve seen, were much smaller than that). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/107 "2017-11-10T17:30:46Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It depends how you value ethnic homogeneity and ethno-tribal solidarity vs. economics. That boat sailed decades before we joined the Common Market, and in a direction towards far greater ethnic heterogeneity than came with the right of free movement for European citizens. Moreover, our future economic prosperity is likely to depend on maintaining the numbers of young people immigrating from somewhere, in or out of the EU. Hauling up the drawbridge is simply not practicable. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/108 "2017-11-10T17:43:25Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > That boat sailed decades before we joined the Common Market, and in a direction towards far greater ethnic heterogeneity than came with the right of free movement for European citizens. Actually, Brexit is likely to lead to greater immigration from British Empire - largely non-white - countries. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/109 "2017-11-10T17:46:28Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Moreover, our future economic prosperity is likely to depend on maintaining the numbers of young people immigrating from somewhere, in or out of the EU. Hauling up the drawbridge is simply not practicable. My point is that people who voted for Brexit (I spent a week in northern England last month, and talked to a bunch of Brexit voters) probably care a lot more about ethnic homogeneity than they do about economic prosperity. Rather a lot of people do. (Currently, in Poland, over half the population say that they would rather leave the EU and take a big economic hit, than accept Muslim immigrants). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/110 "2017-11-11T06:45:30Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > My point is that people who voted for Brexit (I spent a week in northern England last month, and talked to a bunch of Brexit voters) probably care a lot more about ethnic homogeneity than they do about economic prosperity. Rather a lot of people do. Indeed. And my point is, if they’re expecting Brexit to make a blind bit of difference in that direction, they’re in for a big disappointment. And they’ll still get the rough end of the pineapple when it comes to the economic effects too. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/111 "2017-11-11T13:38:11Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Indeed. And my point is, if they’re expecting Brexit to make a blind bit of difference in that direction, they’re in for a big disappointment. And they’ll still get the rough end of the pineapple when it comes to the economic effects too. Depends on how big an economic price they’re willing to pay. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/112 "2017-11-11T16:18:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you want to understand this, as an American, wouldn’t you think our Civil War should have been “in the past” by this point? I thought it was, except for the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/113 "2017-11-12T10:53:28Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Depends on how big an economic price they’re willing to pay. If the general approach to social and economic policy of the Tory Brexiteers prevails, they may not have much choice about it. A cheap labour economy is still going to need immigration if the age imbalance isn’t to worsen, and will by definition be giving people at or just above the bottom of the heap as bad a time, or worse, than they’ve been having now - and the price won’t be visible on whatever menu’s presented, merely experienced once it’s even harder to change course. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/114 "2017-11-12T13:25:43Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > If the general approach to social and economic policy of the Tory Brexiteers prevails, they may not have much choice about it. A cheap labour economy is still going to need immigration if the age imbalance isn’t to worsen, and will by definition be giving people at or just above the bottom of the heap as bad a time, or worse, than they’ve been having now - and the price won’t be visible on whatever menu’s presented, merely experienced once it’s even harder to change course. Most of the cheap labour in Ireland is being provided by third country nationals anyway - undocumented Bangladeshis, Mauritians, Chinese. Is it different in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/115 "2017-11-12T14:11:18Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Is it different in the UK? I don’t have figures to hand, but the perception (which is what dominates this debate) is that it is substantially people from the recently acceded post-Communist states, such as Poles, Lithuanians, Romanians, though for some people any foreigners will do. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/116 "2017-11-12T14:50:35Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > +1000. > > Whether Brexit is going to make Britain better off ultimately is a question of values, not fact. It depends how you value ethnic homogeneity and ethno-tribal solidarity vs. economics. Lots of people, if forced to choose between “living in a homogenous, ethnically English nation that’s 20% poorer on average” or “living a multicultural, cosmopolitan country that’s 20% richer” would choose the former. > (Never mind that the actual economic impact, from the forecasts I’ve seen, were much smaller than that). Any better off calculation will largely depend on what happens inside the EU in the near future. A growing prosperous EU may be looked on enviously by Brexit Britain; a “muddling through” EU(the most likely outcome) will leave both Brexiteers and Remainers with something to crow about; an EU tearing itself apart both politically and economically can only be good politically for Brexiteers. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/117 "2017-11-12T17:37:31Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > My point is that people who voted for Brexit (I spent a week in northern England last month, and talked to a bunch of Brexit voters) probably care a lot more about ethnic homogeneity than they do about economic prosperity. Rather a lot of people do. (Currently, in Poland, over half the population say that they would rather leave the EU and take a big economic hit, than accept Muslim immigrants). How very odd - I have been repeatedly assured that racism and xenophobia were not significant factors in the Leave campaign. (I now eagerly await someone to come in and explain how “concern for ethnic homogeneity” differs in any significant fashion from “racism and xenophobia”.) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/118 "2017-11-14T23:57:19Z")
The main clear beneficiaries of Brexit to my mind are the English language schools of Dublin, already bustling. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/119 "2017-11-15T15:34:01Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Any better off calculation will largely depend on what happens inside the EU in the near future. A growing prosperous EU may be looked on enviously by Brexit Britain; a “muddling through” EU(the most likely outcome) will leave both Brexiteers and Remainers with something to crow about; an EU tearing itself apart both politically and economically can only be good politically for Brexiteers. Well, I would guess that there are going to be more countries leaving in the medium term future (Poland and Hungary, most likely, over the immigration / refugees issue, maybe the Czech Republic after that). That being said, if the more immigration-skeptical countries leave the EU, the remaining ‘core’ members will probably be more unified in terms of worldview and attitude than they are today. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185/120 "2017-11-15T15:39:51Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > How very odd - I have been repeatedly assured that racism and xenophobia were not significant factors in the Leave campaign. > > (I now eagerly await someone to come in and explain how “concern for ethnic homogeneity” differs in any significant fashion from “racism and xenophobia”.) There’s no doubt in my mind that Brexit, and for that matter the Austrian election in October, the Czech election later in October, the Polish election back in 2015, the Danish election the same year, the elections in Slovakia / Moldova / Bulgaria last year, were all to a very large extent referendums on immigration. where the side in favour of greater ethnic homogeneity made big gains. (So was the 2016 American election, although under a fairer system Hillary would have won: Trump won because of an Electoral College fluke and because of the two party system). The interesting question about which people differ is whether they think concern for ethnic homogeneity is a good thing or a bad thing, but I think the factual question of what these elections were about is pretty clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-and-the-irish-border-conundrum/797185.md?page=7)