# Brexit - general discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424 "2018-11-12T20:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/281 "2018-11-28T04:11:51Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I’m not sure it has anything to do with that—the Tories’ counterparts in other Commonwealth realms (such as the Canadian Tories) are notorious for splitting, reforming, and splitting again ad nauseam. True, but they’ve never had the “Canada’s Natural Governing Party” thing going for them. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/282 "2018-11-28T08:41:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > True, but they’ve never had the “Canada’s Natural Governing Party” thing going for them. Maybe, but that’s [not for want of trying](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/the-conservative-plan-to-become-canadas-natural-governing-party). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/283 "2018-11-28T09:28:37Z")
Brexit: a shorthand notation for clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/284 "2018-11-28T09:41:09Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I’ve said it before, but I’d kill to be able to listen in May’s weekly audiences with the Queen. I rather suspect that HM harbours a secret desire to kill to get out of them. One would like to think they kick off their shoes, neck a glass or two of Pinot Grigio and go into a “Men! Huh!” rant, but more likely the Maybot is fully deployed on such occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/285 "2018-11-29T01:12:04Z")
[![](https://i.imgur.com/BWFrluA.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/BWFrluA.png) As someone on Twitter wrote, “This is how every time we argue about where to eat, we end up at Arby’s, even though we all hate Arby’s.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/286 "2018-11-29T03:57:16Z")
Abilene paradox - cited upthread > **[Abilene paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox)** > > In the Abilene paradox, a group of people collectively decide on a course of action that is counter to the preferences of many or all of the individuals in the group. It involves a common breakdown of group communication in which each member mistakenly believes that their own preferences are counter to the group's and, therefore, does not raise objections, or even states support for an outcome they do not want. A common phrase relating to the Abilene paradox is a desire to not "rock the bo The t... ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/287 "2018-11-29T13:34:24Z")
Sadly, it turns out that chart is in [error](http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/steve-fisher-condorcet), and in fact May’s deal beats both Remain and No Deal in a two-way match-up (May Deal should have the 56% in the first graph). But the question is based on ranking all three options, and if people are presented iwth that choice then Remain wins. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/288 "2018-11-29T15:30:45Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > But the question is based on ranking all three options, and if people are presented iwth that choice then Remain wins. Well yes, because you’re splitting the Leave vote. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/289 "2018-11-29T15:35:31Z")
> [@Dacien](#): > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://i.imgur.com/BWFrluA.png) > > As someone on Twitter wrote, “This is how every time we argue about where to eat, we end up at Arby’s, even though we all hate Arby’s.” Can I Remain, _and_ have a jamocha shake? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/290 "2018-11-29T15:52:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Well yes, because you’re splitting the Leave vote. But if you don’t divide the Leave options, you end up with the Abilene paradox and people getting a form of Leave they wouldn’t necessarily have voted for had it been set out explicitly. I continue to believe that the “stop the clock” option is the best for all concerned now - continue negotiations but withdraw from Article 50 as crashing out with a “no deal” Brexit will be hugely damaging and we gain nothing from it. Meanwhile, [this still seems about right](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAlci07mnRQ). ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/291 "2018-11-29T16:37:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Well yes, because you’re splitting the Leave vote. But that’s the point: “Leave” isn’t actually one choice. There were potentially lots of ways to Leave, and now there are two on the table. When people confront the reality of that, neither option is as popular as Remain. Ditto, if you split “Remain” into “Join Schengen” vs “Cameron’s 2016 deal” vs “status quo” you’d find that there were differing opinions among Remain voters. In a world of varying and multi-dimensional choices, referendums are blunt and useless tools. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/292 "2018-11-29T17:02:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Well yes, because you’re splitting the Leave vote. Quartz, are you of the opinion it should be Brexit whatever the cost? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![DCTrekkie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dctrekkie/32/18862_2.png) [@DCTrekkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCTrekkie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/293 "2018-11-29T17:55:45Z")
This is why we need to use [[Instant-runoff voting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting)](Instant Runoff Voting), or something similar. You rank the 3 options in preferential order, then when the votes are tallied and the least popular option gets split according to voters second choice. It’s the only way I can think of to offer the 3 options without “splitting the vote”. I do believe though that there are many people who voted leave, but would rather remain than crash out with no deal, and the only way we can know for sure what the people want is with a second referendum, with clear distinction on **how** we leave. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/294 "2018-11-29T18:17:20Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Quartz, are you of the opinion it should be Brexit whatever the cost? I believe that the UK should respect the result of the referendum. If that means leaving with no deal, so be it. The UK is a democracy and we respect the will of the people. Brexit is a decision I respect, and polls like that one which employ stupid chicanery are easily exposed and thus do Remain a disservice. No deal is better than a bad deal. Since I did not manage to wade my way through May’s proposed deal I can’t say whether it is a good or a bad deal, but I can say that it was a bad deal - Heath’s - that got us into this mess in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/295 "2018-11-29T18:22:39Z")
We should be glad that May is being stupid enough to have Brexit still hanging over her head at the next election when it could have been done and dusted and in the past. I see an easy Labour victory. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/296 "2018-11-29T20:04:38Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No **deal** is better than a bad deal. Since I did not manage to wade my way through May’s proposed deal I can’t say whether it is a good or a bad deal, but I can say that it was a bad deal - Heath’s - that got us into this mess in the first place. You misspelled “ **Brexit**.” Along with neglecting the fact that no Brexit is also better than a so-called “good” deal. ---
**Author:** ![DCTrekkie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dctrekkie/32/18862_2.png) [@DCTrekkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCTrekkie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/297 "2018-11-29T20:08:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I believe that the UK should respect the result of the referendum. The referendum did not ask if we wanted a “no-deal” brexit. In fact all the major figures on the Leave side were talking about a soft “Norway style” brexit. If we end up in a position where the only option to leave is to “crash out”, why should the public not have the option to reconsider? No deal is not what most of them wanted or were promised. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/298 "2018-11-29T21:22:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I believe that the UK should respect the result of the referendum. If that means leaving with no deal, so be it. The UK is a democracy and we respect the will of the people. Brexit is a decision I respect, and polls like that one which employ stupid chicanery are easily exposed and thus do Remain a disservice. > > No deal is better than a bad deal. Since I did not manage to wade my way through May’s proposed deal I can’t say whether it is a good or a bad deal, but I can say that it was a bad deal - Heath’s - that got us into this mess in the first place. You can’t respect a result that can’t be delivered. Remember, Leave campaigned on the premise that Brexit can be done without any negative impact on the economy or other benefits that we currently enjoy as EU members. That half of their campaign you ignore. But it is part of the Brexit mandate. If Brexit can only happen by incurring harm, then it can _never_ be delivered on the basis on which it was sold. The best deal is Remain - remain wealthy, remain in control, remain strong. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/299 "2018-11-29T22:19:02Z")
> [@DCTrekkie](#): > > The referendum did not ask if we wanted a “no-deal” brexit. In fact all the major figures on the Leave side were talking about a soft “Norway style” brexit. If we end up in a position where the only option to leave is to “crash out”, why should the public not have the option to reconsider? No deal is not what most of them wanted or were promised. But isn’t Article 50 crystal clear on the subject of the procedure for leaving the EU? During the campaign, the information was that they would try to negotiate a deal, but that if they clock ran out it would be a hard Brexit. People were idiotic enough to believe that the clock wouldn’t run out, or that the UK could win a game of brinksmanship against a larger entity who held all the cards, and voted accordingly. I’m having a hard time mustering outrage that they were misled. They weren’t taking it seriously, is what happened. In other words, if people voted based on beliefs and desires rather than the reality of the situation, they deserve what they get. Unfortunately, 48% of voters and majorities in large swathes of the country do NOT deserve that, and there’s really no way to compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/300 "2018-11-29T22:53:37Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I believe that the UK should respect the result of the referendum. If that means leaving with no deal, so be it. The UK is a democracy and we respect the will of the people. Brexit is a decision I respect, and polls like that one which employ stupid chicanery are easily exposed and thus do Remain a disservice. > > No deal is better than a bad deal. Since I did not manage to wade my way through May’s proposed deal I can’t say whether it is a good or a bad deal, but I can say that it was a bad deal - Heath’s - that got us into this mess in the first place. This is … **completely nonsensical** The UK is a parliamentary democracy, not a People’s Republic dictatorship. Having a 2nd consultation or vote or referendum is not in any way the contradiction of democracy, the contrary. If only _ **One True Vote** _ is valid, then you are not in the logic of democracy at all (there should not be new elections ever then), you are in the logic of the “votes” of the kind the old Soviet Union and the China did for their satellites. One Vote and that is that, the Decision has been taken to join the East Bloc (ah sorry it is some pretend not really existing Anglosphere). This is not western democracy. This position lacks any logical coherence. Why over the years you have kept up pretending to be anything but in fact for the brexit while making the very thinly disguised brexit arguments is as strange to me as the weird solicitude for the feelings of Trump and supposed smearing against him. It’s just very strange. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=16)