# Brexit - general discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424 "2018-11-12T20:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![DCTrekkie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dctrekkie/32/18862_2.png) [@DCTrekkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCTrekkie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/301 "2018-11-29T23:23:11Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > But isn’t Article 50 crystal clear on the subject of the procedure for leaving the EU? During the campaign, the information was that they would try to negotiate a deal, but that if they clock ran out it would be a hard Brexit. People were idiotic enough to believe that the clock wouldn’t run out, or that the UK could win a game of brinksmanship against a larger entity who held all the cards, and voted accordingly. I’m having a hard time mustering outrage that they were misled. They weren’t taking it seriously, is what happened. > > In other words, if people voted based on beliefs and desires rather than the reality of the situation, they deserve what they get. Unfortunately, 48% of voters and majorities in large swathes of the country do NOT deserve that, and there’s really no way to compromise. I agree that voters at the time were stupid and/or misled, and if I wasn’t part of the 48% I’d probably feel some pleasure at the 52% getting what they voted for, but still, why can they not have the opportunity to change their minds. We shouldnt be making such a huge change, that could effectively ruin our economy for a decade, based on one flawed referendum with a deliberately misinformed populace. Whilst it’s by no means certain, polls are showing that many Leavers would switch their vote if No Deal was the only option, and there’s already a shift to remain as the older generation die off and the younger generation reach voting age. Also Article 50 itself is almost certainly reversible, whether unilaterally or with the EU’s consent. The guy who wrote article 50 believes it can be revoked unilaterally, the EU have said that they’d be happy to cancel it, and there’s a court case started this week asking the ECJ for a ruling on it. Of course our government tried to block this as they don’t want Remain to be an option, but the EU’s lawyers basically said they wouldn’t contest any revocation by the UK. Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/302 "2018-11-29T23:44:16Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This is … **completely nonsensical** I’m sorry you lack basic comprehension skills. > [@](#): > > If only _ **One True Vote** _ is valid… Remainers are not the only people demanding a new referendum: the SNP have been at it ever since they lost their last one. It’s just a case of “Wah, we lost.” The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. The choice was simple: remain or leave. Not ‘Leave on X terms’. The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. Or is democracy only democracy when it gives the result you want? If Brexit turns out to be a failure, as our politicians seem to be desperately trying to effect, the UK can apply to rejoin the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/303 "2018-11-29T23:52:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m sorry you lack basic comprehension skills. Bah. Accidentally deleted the next sentence: What exactly is nonsensical? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/304 "2018-11-30T00:00:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m sorry you lack basic comprehension skills. Do not engage in this type of personalization. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/305 "2018-11-30T00:39:36Z")
> [@DCTrekkie](#): > > Also Article 50 itself is almost certainly reversible, whether unilaterally or with the EU’s consent. This is my hope: all it takes is a leader with the courage to stand up and say, “this was the result of a badly-done referendum, but it is NOT the will of the people, and it is not in the interests of the people. We are cancelling it.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/306 "2018-11-30T02:05:46Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Sadly, it turns out that chart is in [error](http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/steve-fisher-condorcet), and in fact May’s deal beats both Remain and No Deal in a two-way match-up (May Deal should have the 56% in the first graph). But the question is based on ranking all three options, and if people are presented iwth that choice then Remain wins. > [@Quartz](#): > > Well yes, because you’re splitting the Leave vote. If you’re ranking all three options, you’re not splitting any votes. If it’s true that a majority of the population would rather leave on any terms than remain then, when you eliminate the least popular option, one of the two leave options must win. If that doesn’t happen, then it’s not true that a majority of the population would rather leave on any terms than remain; the likely truth is that a majority of the population would like to leave, but only if that can be done on terms which they consider acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/307 "2018-11-30T02:32:24Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > This is my hope: all it takes is a leader with the courage to stand up and say, “this was the result of a badly-done referendum, but it is NOT the will of the people, and it is not in the interests of the people. We are cancelling it.” But leadership of that quality is not to be found in the current House of Commons - on either side. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/308 "2018-11-30T02:34:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Or is democracy only democracy when it gives the result you want?. That certainly seems to be the position of people who oppose a further vote. They’re of the view that the previous vote, in 2016, has put this question beyond democratic review or reconsideration for an unspecified but lengthy period. They see referendums as a way of setting a boundary to the march of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/309 "2018-11-30T05:24:33Z")
> [@DCTrekkie](#): > > This is why we need to use [[Instant-runoff voting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting)](Instant Runoff Voting), or something similar. You rank the 3 options in preferential order, then when the votes are tallied and the least popular option gets split according to voters second choice. It’s the only way I can think of to offer the 3 options without “splitting the vote”. I do believe though that there are many people who voted leave, but would rather remain than crash out with no deal, and the only way we can know for sure what the people want is with a second referendum, with clear distinction on **how** we leave. Something similar: you could also try [approval voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting). There are actually lots of alternatives to first-past-the-post/plurality voting/winner take all. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/310 "2018-11-30T05:26:33Z")
_“When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?”     – John Maynard Keynes_ The situation has changed in 2½ years. It’s changed enough so that it’s worth holding another referendum. More information has come to light about: • The complexity and consequences of Brexit  • The likely economic effects  • The exceptionally poor quality of British government leadership  • Illegal funding and lies of the Brexit campaign  • Ayn Randian intent of the leading promoters of Brexit  • [Russian interference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum) in the referendum  • etc. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/311 "2018-11-30T09:00:21Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m sorry you lack basic comprehension skills. > > Remainers are not the only people demanding a new referendum: the SNP have been at it ever since they lost their last one. It’s just a case of “Wah, we lost.” The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. The choice was simple: remain or leave. Not ‘Leave on X terms’. The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. The SNP do have some justification though, don’t you think? The unionists warned independence hazarded EU membership, and here we find unionism hazarding EU membership. If the polls were reflecting this deception by having a majority in favour of independence, I don’t doubt demands for a second vote would be irresistible, even if I hate the idea. But independence polls remain static right now with a solid margin for staying in the UK. That’s not the case with Brexit. > [@](#): > > Or is democracy only democracy when it gives the result you want? As has been said, that’s what you’re trying to do. > [@](#): > > If Brexit turns out to be a failure, as our politicians seem to be desperately trying to effect, the UK can apply to rejoin the EU. There is no way it can’t be a failure. Why prolong it? If we’re forced to rejoin, we lose everything we’ve gained through membership - exception from the Euro, the opt-outs, the rebate…and we’ll be on the outside, so who knows what additional requirements will be added in the meantime. Why are you so hell-bent? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/312 "2018-11-30T09:37:00Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The situation has changed in 2½ years. It’s changed enough so that it’s worth holding another referendum. No, the situation has not changed. We have yet to leave the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/313 "2018-11-30T09:58:18Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No, the situation has not changed. We have yet to leave the EU. The situation has not changed. We have yet to jump off this cliff without a parachute, despite being told there would be a parachute. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/314 "2018-11-30T10:15:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The choice was simple: remain or leave. Not ‘Leave on X terms’. The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. But it’s impossible to ‘leave’. You have to leave on some terms or other. That’s not a weasely changing of the deal. It’s just a simple fact about what leaving entails. You do it one way, or another way, or a third way. But you can’t not have a way. When we leave, we leave with no deal, or this deal, or that deal. There are big differences between these options, and at some point we have to actually pick one over the others. There are various ways of picking - some think it should be up to Parliament as constituted now, some want a general election first, some want a second referendum. But whatever the decision method, a decision has to be made. And when that happens, all the people who voted to leave somehow should have the right to ask themselves if this particular version of Leave is what they were voting for. For some it will be - maybe a majority! But not, if _Leavers_ feel that the Brexit they’ve ultimately been given is worse than Remain, should they not have the chance to say so? What’s the democratic option here? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/315 "2018-11-30T10:28:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m sorry you lack basic comprehension skills. No, there is no lack of comprehension. There is a lack of coherence in your arguments. > [@](#): > > Remainers are not the only people demanding a new referendum: the SNP have been at it ever since they lost their last one. It’s just a case of “Wah, we lost.” The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. The choice was simple: remain or leave. Not ‘Leave on X terms’. The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. this is the argument of the Soviets. One True Vote One Time. the People’s Republic democracy. It is not an argument coming from actual democracy (otherwise there would not be regular elections, no, one election for life terms - people voted, get over it…). You had a closely decided referendum that was not even one legally binding and had very different results in the different components of the overall State, and since then many terms not yet actually clear and subject to great obfuscation have become clear. And like as in calling an election in a situation of a collapsed confidence in our parliamentary systems, there is **nothing undemocratic about a 2nd vote, to the contrary it is more democratic**. But you clearly prefer the Soviet People’s Republic approach for the One Result. > [@](#): > > Or is democracy only democracy when it gives the result you want? Apparently for you, yes. (but me I have no direct interest in your result - in fact my business trips to London keep getting cheaper thanks to the strange self-harming the UK is engaging in, and more of the high-paying jobs from London are moving back to the continent, so in fact there is a benefit. But the objective facts are the objective facts.) > [@](#): > > If Brexit turns out to be a failure… of course it will be a failure, anyone with any understanding of the modern economic systems can see that. The façade of Brexit doubtful you have tried to maintain is a very weak one. Recalling still immediate afterward you patted the decision on the back because the long-term economic costs did not appear in the first weeks afterward. There is no doubt on the effects, the economics of these situations are very clear in the data. Of course for the various parties that fear and hate the outsiders, it may be worth impoverishment so that do not have to bear the burden of the polish plumbers’ voices and the great threat to your sovereign nation from the polish and the spanish hotel workers. > [@UDS](#): > > That certainly seems to be the position of people who oppose a further vote. They’re of the view that the previous vote, in 2016, has put this question beyond democratic review or reconsideration for an unspecified but lengthy period. They see referendums as a way of setting a boundary to the march of democracy. Yes. > [@Quartz](#): > > No, the situation has not changed. We have yet to leave the EU. Encore incoherence. The situation has changed as the Article 50 was actually invoked, as the economic costs - both the immediate real ones that are feeding into your economy now and the longer-term ones ignored via the entirely magical thinking about economic exchanges and magical wishful thinking about technologies not yet even existing to hand-waive away the impacts of border trade frictions… These are all situations changed from the moment of the vote. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/316 "2018-11-30T10:43:28Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I believe that the UK should respect the result of the referendum. If that means leaving with no deal, so be it. The UK is a democracy and we respect the will of the people. Brexit is a decision I respect, and polls like that one which employ stupid chicanery are easily exposed and thus do Remain a disservice. “We must respect democracy by denying it”. Got it. > [@](#): > > No deal is better than a bad deal. Like “Brexit means Brexit”, this is a pithy statement that falls apart at the slightest scrutiny. **No deal IS a bad deal**. It’s a \*terrible \*deal that will have abrupt and dire economic consequences for the country, a country that is literally planning to stockpile food due to the effects of Brexit. And it is not the deal that a large number of Leavers voted for. > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > You can’t respect a result that can’t be delivered. Remember, Leave campaigned on the premise that Brexit can be done without any negative impact on the economy or other benefits that we currently enjoy as EU members. Look, the Leave campaign promised us that everyone would get a unicorn and the people voted for that. Clearly it’s the fault of Remoaners that we don’t all have unicorns yet. > [@](#): > > If Brexit can only happen by incurring harm, then it can _never_ be delivered on the basis on which it was sold. Indeed. If I were an estate agent and promised that I could sell your house for three times its market value plus getting the cost of moving thrown in, you might readily agree with that proposal. If I came back later and said “Actually, the best offer I can get for your house is twenty quid and a packet of crisps”, which would be the more sensible approach: a) to have a say on the actual final terms of the deal with the option not to accept it and to stay with the status quo for now; or b) to cross your arms and go “Nope - house sale means house sale”, claim that the fact that you’ve managed to get them to agree that the crisps were salt and vinegar rather than cheese and onion is a major negotiating victory, and then pop off to Waitrose to see if they have any cardboard boxes to use for packing? Because **Quartz** ’s argument is firmly in the b) category. > [@Quartz](#): > > Remainers are not the only people demanding a new referendum: the SNP have been at it ever since they lost their last one. It’s just a case of “Wah, we lost.” The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. The choice was simple: remain or leave. Not ‘Leave on X terms’. The people voted to leave. Get over it. Respect it. If \*argumentum ad petulance \* is your preferred approach, I can likewise point out that the “No further vote must be allowed” approach translates to “The Leave campaign lied, cheated and was heavily supported by the concerted efforts of foreign agents, and the problem is that it can’t get away with that twice in a row.” > [@](#): > > If Brexit turns out to be a failure, as our politicians seem to be desperately trying to effect, the UK can apply to rejoin the EU. But on much less favourable terms than we have now. There is no “undo” button to this; even if we stopped the whole thing now and stayed in the EU a lot of irreversible damage has already been done. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/317 "2018-11-30T10:44:55Z")
By the way: [London to lose €800bn to Frankfurt as banks prepare for Brexit](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/29/london-to-lose-800bn-to-frankfurt-as-banks-prepare-for-brexit). They’re already leaving, and even if we change our mind a lot of that isn’t coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/318 "2018-11-30T10:54:06Z")
Indeed, a lot of damage has been done, but we can cauterise. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/319 "2018-11-30T11:03:42Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Indeed, a lot of damage has been done, but we can cauterise. Let’s just hope we won’t have to amputate anything first. ---
**Author:** ![DCTrekkie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dctrekkie/32/18862_2.png) [@DCTrekkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCTrekkie)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/320 "2018-11-30T12:13:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Let’s just hope we won’t have to amputate anything first. I don’t know, cutting off the Conservative party sounds like a good idea right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=17)