# Brexit - general discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424 "2018-11-12T20:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/542 "2018-12-13T16:16:56Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It seems to me the best course would be for Parliament to cancel Brexit and immediately call new elections, saying “if you really want Brexit, vote for someone who has an acceptable plan for it”. The problem is it requires a Parliament that puts country before party and apparently none of the parties are willing to do that. The second problem with that approach is that from the EU’s point of view cancelling Brexit then re-Brexiting once you’ve had a good think is an act of enormous bad faith. They’ve spent a fair chunk of time over the past two years engaging with our lacklustre and disorganised attempts to do this thing; if the outcome is that we engage some procedural jiggery-pokery so that we can all start all over again from the beginning then they will naturally ask themselves if they can trust us not to do the same again. It’s not a good basis for a renegotiation. (That said, I’m quite amused by the concept of a new tradition in which the UK ceremonially submits and withdraws A50 notification on an 18-month basis for the next 50 years.) ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/543 "2018-12-13T16:25:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is the most significant British political group/party/individual pushing for canceling Brexit, and do they have a plan? Is there any feasible series of events that could result in no Brexit? 1. There aren’t any \*\*significant \*\*groups pushing for cancelling Brexit. There’s a fractious coalition of various non-party political orgs who are against Brexit, but they are a) largely ineffectual and b) split on tactics. The majority seem to want a People’s Vote, and they get pretty furious with the others who want to just cancel Brexit through Parliament, or who want to settle for a “Norway” option. There is, right now, no concerted Remain voice. 2. Nope. 3. The only routes are pretty implausible ones. Probably the most feasible is a victory for Remain in a second referendum, but that hinges on a second referendum being called. A general election won’t do it, because no party will stand on a “cancel Brexit” manifesto. Least likely is Parliament taking control of the process, although the closer we get to the deadline for No Deal Brexit, the more likely that becomes (still slim chance IMHO). ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/544 "2018-12-13T16:29:16Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It seems to me the best course would be for Parliament to cancel Brexit and immediately call new elections, saying “if you really want Brexit, vote for someone who has an acceptable plan for it”. The problem is it requires a Parliament that puts country before party and apparently none of the parties are willing to do that. UKIP has spent hears focusing, obsessively, on the _threat_ from immigrants, both EU and external. nationalism is really just a repackaged form of racism focusing on the “others” with just another random set of markers. These individuals truely believe that "_putting country first"_ involves protecting their native “_race_” from outsiders. While some on the right may not feel comfortable putting it in the context of “race” there is no functional difference. This is the same story in the US, Brazil and other areas of Europe where nationalism is on the rise. They will never view “country” as being an economic and political organization, their beliefs are too cemented in it relating to a “_people_” they irrationally feel are under attack. The economic and policy issues with a large confederation of nation states is a side issue to this core nationalistic “_race_” that they are willing to destroy everything to protect. In their minds they are putting country before party. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/545 "2018-12-13T16:39:05Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The second problem with that approach is that from the EU’s point of view cancelling Brexit then re-Brexiting once you’ve had a good think is an act of enormous bad faith. They’ve spent a fair chunk of time over the past two years engaging with our lacklustre and disorganised attempts to do this thing; if the outcome is that we engage some procedural jiggery-pokery so that we can all start all over again from the beginning then they will naturally ask themselves if they can trust us not to do the same again. It’s not a good basis for a renegotiation. It is a problem, but I’m not sure Britain can be said to have negotiated in good faith to begin with. The EU heard all the domestic promises made by the Leave campaign and the bargaining tactics advocated by the British government, and knew how impossible they all were. I’m not sure more of the same would reduce Britain’s standing any more. Britain is either going to be the crazed uncle living in the attic or the creepy neighbor peering over the fence. There’s no good choices left. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/546 "2018-12-13T16:39:19Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > … But if they’re not, you’d rather stay safe and dry… There might be very few MPs indeed who will remain, or come out of this mess, “safe and dry.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/547 "2018-12-13T18:46:59Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It is a problem, but I’m not sure Britain can be said to have negotiated in good faith to begin with. The EU heard all the domestic promises made by the Leave campaign and the bargaining tactics advocated by the British government, and knew how impossible they all were. I’m not sure more of the same would reduce Britain’s standing any more. > > Britain is either going to be the crazed uncle living in the attic or the creepy neighbor peering over the fence. There’s no good choices left. Or, in 10 years’ time they’ll look like geniuses as the EU continues to suffer under the weight of its own contradictions. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/548 "2018-12-13T18:52:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Or, in 10 years’ time they’ll look like geniuses as the EU continues to suffer under the weight of its own contradictions. Yes, but Britain is tied to Europe by proximity if not by law. Better to have a hand in steering the ship then simply being haplessly pulled in its wake. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/549 "2018-12-13T19:06:39Z")
“The choice is clear. We can play a role in developing Europe or we can turn our backs. By turning our backs we would forfeit our right to influence what happens. But what happens will inevitably affect us”.   – Margaret Thatcher, 1975. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/550 "2018-12-13T19:14:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Or, in 10 years’ time they’ll look like geniuses as the EU continues to suffer under the weight of its own contradictions. That’s more likely to be the UK. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/551 "2018-12-13T19:20:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Or, in 10 years’ time they’ll look like geniuses as the EU continues to suffer under the weight of its own contradictions. Like your last prediction of about ten years ago about the failure? of course outside of the hard political ideology, there is no rational reason to erect greater trade barriers with your nearest and wealthy trading partners. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/552 "2018-12-13T21:37:32Z")
It’s like someone proclaiming that they ran a business perfectly well without all this technology back in the '70s, then smashing up their computer on which is saved the only copy of their records, contacts, emails… It’s possible to run a business without a computer, but that does not change the fact that that would be a mindbogglingly stupid way to go about things. Anyone in Canada/Australia/New Zealand want a visa bride? (Joking… mostly) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/553 "2018-12-13T22:30:49Z")
Ah that is … it is very strangely the appropriate analogy. as it captures even the aspect of the generations involved ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/554 "2018-12-13T23:00:35Z")
My favourite analogy was that of someone about to jump from a plane, without a parachute (the parachute being a deal), but before they jump, seeing people on the ground, and wondering how they’re managing so fine without having to worry about parachutes. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/555 "2018-12-13T23:30:39Z")
Reports coming through of the state of the backstop negotiations. And it doesn’t look good. It looks like it’s now _worse_. Twitter summary: [https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1073355214340743168?s=21](https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1073355214340743168?s=21) Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/556 "2018-12-14T06:33:23Z")
How the fuck does it get worse?! _ **clicks link** _ God dammit! ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/557 "2018-12-14T10:52:32Z")
This Withdrawal Agreement is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet it’s maker! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket! It’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisible! THIS IS AN EX-WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT!! EU: Well, we’d better replace it, then. - (They take a quick peek in their document folders.)\* Sorry, lady, We’ve had a look round, and uh, we’re right out of Withdrawal Agreements. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/558 "2018-12-14T12:55:01Z")
It’s obviously pining for Old Albion. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/559 "2018-12-15T04:18:41Z")
In related news, Vladimir Putin has been seen walking around the Kremlin with his right arm in a sling. Reports say he sprained his shoulder patting himself on the back, for the way he’s managed to convince the United States to elect an ignorant sociopath President, and the United Kingdom to destroy its economy. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/560 "2018-12-15T05:15:57Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > In related news, Vladimir Putin has been seen walking around the Kremlin with his right arm in a sling. Reports say he sprained his shoulder patting himself on the back, for the way he’s managed to convince the United States to elect an ignorant sociopath President, and the United Kingdom to destroy its economy. … and weakened the EU, not only by Brexit, but by successfully supporting right-wing populist groups all over Europe. They all love Putin or owe him something, just like Trump, Farage, Bannon, etc. … and successfully kept his ally Bashar al-Assad in power in Syria, while defeating both ISIS and the West there and kicking them out. … and successfully taken back Crimea, and recently blatantly intimidated Ukraine while the West did nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/561 "2018-12-15T07:21:47Z")
The NY Times [notes](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/world/europe/may-brexit-brussels-.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fworld&action=click&contentCollection=world®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront) that the EU won’t agree to change anything for fear that the hardliners will just want more. > [@](#): > > Brussels is unlikely to make even minor changes to help Mrs. May until after Parliament votes down the agreement, they said, noting that in the past, the bloc only moved to salvage a disaster once it had actually happened. > > To make concessions beforehand might allow pro-Brexit members of Parliament to demand more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=29)