# Brexit - general discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424 "2018-11-12T20:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/101 "2018-11-15T13:55:45Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The UK is on track to leave the EU on 29 March, in exactly the same way that people who jump out of planes are on track to smash into the ground. There are some specific actions they can take to avoid that fate, but failing that ground-smashing is what’s going to happen. It is very strange to watch this process, it is like watching someone sawing through their own wrist, and at the same time they continue to be loudly declaring they refuse to stop unless they get a deal for having another hand… And the strange comments that show some kind of the magical thinking like the ex minister for the Brexit "["hadn’t quite understood” the importance of cross-Channel trade to the UK economy](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-dominic-raab-trade-eu-france-calais-dover-economy-finance-deal-a8624036.html) (also [the BBC for more of the context](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46142188)) is just strange. It all seems to be like the very comments by Quartz here in this thread and even over the years, going back to some vague resentments that are not very well supported by any analysis of the economic logic or the economic data and facts. Nostalgie for the Glorious years as imagined in memory? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/102 "2018-11-15T14:05:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’m not a Brit, but I would kind of expect that the Brexit secretary would, you know, be in charge of handling Brexit. But that’s just me. Well, the first appointee to the role was David Davies - a leading Brexiteer. He didn’t exactly do a good job so the Cabinet Office took over in all but name. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/103 "2018-11-15T14:06:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’m not a Brit, but I would kind of expect that the Brexit secretary would, you know, be in charge of handling Brexit. But that’s just me. He was the minister just said in the public only a few weeks ago that he was surprised to learn how important the channel transit and the frictionless trade is to the British economy, so it is maybe too much to expect the mastery of the boring details. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/104 "2018-11-15T14:09:14Z")
The Conservative Party has their own internal rules regarding the confidence votes in the Prime Minister. That process has just been triggered by Rees-Mogg writing a letter to the Conservative Party 1922 Committee. > **[Read Jacob Rees-Mogg's letter of no-confidence in Theresa May to the 1922...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/15/read-jacob-rees-moggs-letter-no-confidence-theresa-may-1922/)** > > ERG Chairman Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP, has sent the following letter to Sir Graham Brady, chairman of the 1922 committee, requesting a vote of no confidence in Theresa May as leader of the Conservative & Unionist Party. If enough Conservative MPs join him in asking for a no confidence motion in the leadership of the party, that could mark the end of Theresa May as a Conservative Prime Minister. The party would remain in power and then to quickly elect a new leader to take the poisoned chalice that is Brexit. Whether they would want a General Election, they would have to agree that with Labour, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/105 "2018-11-15T14:18:11Z")
Apparently 48 Conservative MPs are required to trigger a Conservative Party no confidence motion in Theresa May as leader. Will she be able to muster enough support to see off this challenge? If May goes, so does the Withdrawal Agreement. A new incumbent would have to come up with something pretty darned quick that could be sold to the party and was acceptable to the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/106 "2018-11-15T14:42:16Z")
That’s the thing; is there any other MP who thinks they can do a better job of negotiating this? Does this Rees-Mogg guy have any better idea how it should go down? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/107 "2018-11-15T14:45:59Z")
Six resignations from the May Government and counting: [Brexit latest: Live updates as deal hangs in the balance](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/brexit-latest-gbr-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/108 "2018-11-15T14:48:07Z")
_Purely as a hypothetical_: **IF** the House of Commons were allowed to vote by secret ballot, how would they split today on the Remain-Leave question? (For the purpose of this hypothetical, let’s assume that Merkel et al have agreed to “go easy” and forget about Article 50 if “Remain” wins.) ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/109 "2018-11-15T14:51:05Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Could you spell what you _think_ he demanded and got turned down for? > > What concerns? Spell them out. Don’t be vague. And explain why they’re the EU’s problems rather than Westminster’s, and finally if it’s reasonable to expect the EU to accommodate them. > > So that magically makes something that cannot logically exist exist, does it? > Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Hey Quartz, when you’re ready? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/110 "2018-11-15T14:53:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _Purely as a hypothetical_: **IF** the House of Commons were allowed to vote by secret ballot, how would they split today on the Remain-Leave question? (For the purpose of this hypothetical, let’s assume that Merkel et al have agreed to “go easy” and forget about Article 50 if “Remain” wins.) There’s a majority of Remain MPs in the Commons, many represent what were Leave-majority constituencies in the referendum. Many have changed since then, I’d wager. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/111 "2018-11-15T14:58:55Z")
I’d imagine if a secret vote overturned the referendum result that would lead to quite a crisis\* in the public’s confidence in politics. \*more of a crisis. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/112 "2018-11-15T16:16:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _Purely as a hypothetical_: **IF** the House of Commons were allowed to vote by secret ballot, how would they split today on the Remain-Leave question? (For the purpose of this hypothetical, let’s assume that Merkel et al have agreed to “go easy” and forget about Article 50 if “Remain” wins.) I would suggest that it would be an overwhelming vote to Remain. Brexit was never a popular issue with MPs except for those on the Atlanticist fringe of the Conservative Party. It was never really an issue that Labour was bothered about. No politician in their right mind wants to spend the next years dealing with this problem and disruption that Brexit will cause. Tearing up agreements is easy. Building them takes a long time. They know that the public are mainly interested in their politicians dealing with ‘home and hearth’ issues - Health, Education, Jobs, etc. Not complicated international trade negotiations that they do not understand. There are no votes in this. I am sure most MPs wish the whole issue would just go away so they can get back to normal politics. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/113 "2018-11-15T16:38:02Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Could you spell what you _think_ he demanded and got turned down for? You could have looked it up for yourself. [Here’s](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105) the BBC’s report. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/114 "2018-11-15T16:50:12Z")
So the people elected to represent the People want to Remain, but are afraid of the foolish People that elected them. Perhaps Churchill was right after all when he called “democracy the worst form of government.” How about that woman whose face appears on all your money? I assume she wants to Remain also. I’ll repeat the same suggestion that has been made before in SDMB threads on this topic, but is always booed down. But remember: _Difficult times may require extreme measures._ Elizabeth Dei Gratia performs a once-in-a-lifetime duty, demonstrating why Britain has retained its “obsolete” Monarchy. She dissolves Parliament, takes charge personally, and announces that the U.K. will Remain in the European Community. Members of Parliament pretend to be outraged, but smile inside, shrug their shoulders, and say “What can we do? The Constitutional Authority has ruled.” In the aftermath of this, Britain might throw off the royal yoke and become a Republic … but nevertheless obey the pre-Revolution Command and _Remain._ Far-fetched? Probably. But an “insoluble” crisis of such extreme peril may require an extreme solution. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/115 "2018-11-15T17:05:17Z")
An interesting point to bear in mind throughout all of this: The Withdrawal Agreement is 585 pages of dense legal text. It’s been available for less than 24 hours. Pretty much anyone who has a strong opinion about it can safely be said not to have read it in full, still less to have thoroughly digested it. It’s just not possible in the time. You can give May and her Cabinet Ministers a bit of a pass - they’ve had it explained to them at some sort of length by people who do understand it (one hopes). But the ERG lot, Corbyn and his six tests, “commentators” and anyone else who’s telling you exactly what the deal means are working off summaries and skim-reading at best. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/116 "2018-11-15T17:11:54Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The Withdrawal Agreement is 585 pages of dense legal text. It’s been available for less than 24 hours. Pretty much anyone who has a strong opinion about it can safely be said not to have read it in full, still less to have thoroughly digested it. It’s just not possible in the time. Yup. It’s a real slog. And another book arrived this morning which took priority. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/117 "2018-11-15T17:15:57Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > They went about as far as ‘take control of our waters’. Daft, unworkable, and the lack of detail extremely telling. Umm… The territorial waters of the UK are well-defined and we have the fisheries protection vessels and the navy to protect and enforce them. It’s not a difficult problem or one that requires a lot of detail. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/118 "2018-11-15T18:38:07Z")
Didn’t we send Megan Markel over there to help you guys with this stuff? Has she not been helping at all? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/119 "2018-11-15T19:07:49Z")
Did she (May) seriously name drop Geoff Boycott? AKA the most selfish batsman to every play the game. Guy who once helped lose a World Cup final by being so ridiculously slow? Who was once dropped for being too slow while batting? Who was sacked as captain after a revolt? Now if she had said Peter May, she would have had a point. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424/120 "2018-11-15T19:14:58Z")
While Brexiteers are complaining about EU ‘vassalage’, some EU leaders are complaining that the agreement is not tough enough on the UK. [‘Soft’ Brexit agreement not a done deal, warn EU leaders](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/15/soft-brexit-agreement-not-a-done-deal-warn-eu-leaders) > [@](#): > > France’s finance minister, Bruno Le Maire, has welcomed the draft Brexit withdrawal agreement but warned Paris would be vigilant on its final terms, amid mounting concern from EU member states that the UK was being given too soft a deal. …He stressed France would be “cautious” over formally signing off the divorce deal to ensure it “guards French and European interests”. > … > > The Dutch foreign affairs minister, Stef Blok, said the Netherlands would study the draft text “very carefully”, paying “extra attention to agreements on a level playing field and fishing … The customs union as backstop plan demands close examination”. > > France, Spain and Denmark voiced their concerns at a meeting with the European commission on Wednesday, saying the UK was being given a customs union without sufficient guarantees against future undercutting of EU firms and EU standards. The Netherlands has raised similar worries. > > EU ministers meeting on Monday are likely to demand that the price the UK pays for a customs union, included in the withdrawal agreement as the only mutually acceptable mechanism for avoiding a hard border across the island of Ireland or down the Irish sea, must be higher. So it’s by no means certain that the EU will accept this deal without modifications. Those modifications will make it even less acceptable to the UK Parliament than it already is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brexit-general-discussion-thread/824424.md?page=7)