# Bri1600BV Has Shown Me The Light! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898 "2009-08-18T23:43:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/161 "2009-08-23T05:19:37Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Someone I know has a tenant who does just that. It’s his own rant so I won’t go into details but this tenant has caused him serious financial hardship by not paying rent regularly. It’s compounded by the tenant sometimes paying with hundreds of dollars in “food stamps” How does that work? Can you make a landlord take an EBT card instead of cash? Or if you offer your landlord $100 worth of tomatoes or Corn Flakes in lieu of cash is he compelled to take it? I don’t get this. 😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/162 "2009-08-23T05:22:06Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Clearly you didn’t hang onto _enough_ of what you worked for, since you feel the need to suckle the government teat rather than dip into those savings. Retirement funds are not savings. You don’t plan on taking your social security? > [@Harborwolf](#): > > Oh why can’t the poor be more self sufficient like Curlcoat who handles none of her own finances, doesn’t have a job, and can’t even cook. At least she has a blue card. Another one wrong. I handle all of the bill paying except for that blue card, which is my husband’s. As for the job, people like you make our taxes so high that even if I could work, there would be no point. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/163 "2009-08-23T05:41:32Z")
> [@Maia\_s\_Well](#): > > It seems to me that assuming that most poor people who use the library internet access are **not** using the time to look for jobs is jumping to a negative conclusion. It could be, tho it seems to me that there is quite a bit of difference between the negatives assumptions made about me, and my noticing that there is a lot of (claimed) poor people posting here. > [@](#): > > For example, viewing the money you and your husband pay for property taxes as going primarily to teach English to immigrant children. This is a pretty negative conclusion, and also seems highly unlikely to be where “most” of your property tax money goes. Even if it only went to schools, it’s doubtful that all or most of the children in your school district are ESL students, and it’s doubtful that the only thing any of those ESL students are learning is English. So the conclusion you have drawn, while I suppose it’s _possible_ to be somewhat accurate, seems both negative and highly unlikely. I’m sorry you consider all of that doubtful, but it happens to be true, and most of those conclusions were not originally mine. Our city of 250,000 (that the census could find) is majorly recent immigrant Mexican and very poor for the most part. Our schools were already struggling before No Child Left Behind due to the fact so many of the students don’t understand English very well, if at all. Once we were required to try to keep these students at the same level as all the rest, standards dropped and our school district is in the bottom fifth or so (depending on what study you look at) among all California school districts. This has resulted in migration of all students whose parents could at all afford it to private schools, making the public schools even more overwhelmingly ESL children. Now, there may be some misunderstanding because I use the term ESL - I don’t mean that there are necessarily actual ESL classes in our primary schools. I personally have no idea how it is that they go about teaching the kids English, I just read in the papers that this is what the school district is struggling with, children that don’t understand enough English that they can learn what is being taught. > [@](#): > > It sounds to me from reading your posts that you are genuinely very angry. Not me. I find the posts here amazing, sad, amusing, entertaining and at times pathetic, but they don’t make me angry. I have gotten so used to the liberal bleeding hearts here in Orange County that it’s appearance on this board is hardly new. > [@](#): > > I am genuinely distressed to see someone who is angry and unhappy because they believe something that is simply untrue or at least partially untrue. I wish that some of what others are telling might persuade you, in hopes that it might bring you a little relief from your anger. > > I wish you peace, curlcoat. You don’t need to worry about me - honestly! It isn’t me here who is throwing about nastiness and assuming the worst about anyone who disagrees with me. This board is something I do when I’m bored, nothing else. It is also very difficult to get me angry so internet posts from strangers certainly isn’t going to do it. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/164 "2009-08-23T06:05:04Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Retirement funds are not savings. > > You don’t plan on taking your social security? If I can live comfortably on the money I have squirreled away? No, I’ll let that government money go to someone who wasn’t so fortunate. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/165 "2009-08-23T06:15:19Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > … As for the job, people like you make our taxes so high that even if I could work, there would be no point. Rubbing up against that 100% bracket are ya? :rolleyes: CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/166 "2009-08-23T07:24:39Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK. You were “making ends meet” - not making enough to get ahead, have savings or any of that. You got pregnant, and went ahead and had the kid, and even tho she requires that you take money from the taxpayer, that isn’t a mistake? You requiring that the taxpayer raise your kid - a child you apparently couldn’t afford from conception - isn’t lazy, stupid or foolish? Sweet holy fuck. This is straight-up evil. I mean-- I’m pro-choice and all, but what you seem to be suggesting here is pretty fucking sick. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/167 "2009-08-23T07:58:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, it’s like this - I haven’t always been poor. For 20+ years I was comfortably middle or upper middle class. Then several Bad Things happened to me over the course of a year or so and I am now, truly, poor. However, I still own the things I bought and paid for while I was middle class - like a computer and two vehicles and some nice clothes and a TV and stuff like that. Why should I stop using them merely because of reduced financial circumstances? Must… sell… belongings… for… gruel. Very thin, rancid, gruel. Invisible Hand commands thee. \*Pull self up by boot-straps; Death Panels; trickle-down; I got mine; Socialism; get a job; “get me a beer, bitch!”; “MegaDittoes! And Hannity sez…” etc., etc… \* **Shit.** It’s Taking Longer… So Much Longer Than We Could Have Ever Imagined. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/168 "2009-08-23T09:20:34Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > You know, not too long ago I had a job as a property manager for buildings that were HUD properties. This was a very mediocre paying job and we really had to struggle to make ends meet. It was actually one of two jobs that I was working at the time because we were saving up for a down payment on a condo. I remember very vividly the time that I was helping with the annual unit by unit inspection being stunned at the level of consumer goods that I saw in many of these units. Leather couches, plasma televisions and so forth. So I get the frustration that a lot of people have with poverty and the whole realm of government assistance. I sure felt it that day when I contemplated going from there to my second job and then back to my crappy apartment. And how many of these things were actually owned? One of the most booming businesses near any low to low middle class neighborhood is the rent-to-own business, where for easy weekly payments and little to no investigation of credit, anyone can have “nice” (if your tastes run to leather and overstuffed) furniture and a big screen TV and a washer and dryer and a computer and one day you’ll own them all – after paying rental payments that add up to, at a minimum, three to four times the retail price of said items if you bought them outright. It’s a particularly pernicious scam. Most times people can never quite complete the “to own” part of the equation and have the items taken back by the company, then when times are better, turn around and rent again. One of the companies even has a guarantee that if you rent the same item (or the similar, upgraded model) within a certain period of time, your payments from before will apply toward your final “ownership” cost. If you have no credit and no expectation of ever earning enough to save up to buy a nice living room set or TV or washer and dryer or whatever, there’s no reason not to go through the rental thing. You’re ripped off, but the alternative is not having things or having usable/decent things at all. > [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Really, if someone needs help to apply online for a job at Wal-Mart, how are they going to be able to run the (computerized) registers and inventory systems should they be hired? Did you ever hear of job training? You get it even at Wal-Mart. You’re taught how to use the registers and inventory systems when you’re hired. Being trained in using the web, and the various and sundry methods different designers and site architects have of putting together forms (some far more skilled at doing so well than others) isn’t very common. I just looked at WalMart’s online application. Before you even get to the form, you have to agree to certain disclaimers that are somewhat legalese in nature. Someone without a strong vocabulary could need help with those before ever getting to the application form. You’re then required to register with the site, providing all manner of personal details before you ever get to a _job_ application. (That’s where I dumped out of the process, I’m not giving WalMart my info just to see how badly their webmonkeys may have screwed the pooch with their form design.) And that’s just WalMart’s application process. Target’s is different. So is Best Buy’s. Every single one is different, requires different information, has different disclaimers written by different legal teams. Getting a bit confused by all the differing requirements of these companies isn’t that hard. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/169 "2009-08-23T12:29:41Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > And I imagine there are plenty of middle class people in Indiana that don’t appreciate you paying for internet access while they help subsidize your insurance. Are you sure about that? The program I’m in has been very positively received. And how much a month do you think internet access actually costs? > [@](#): > > You use both a car and a truck to get to work? Not at the same time, of course. I work in construction and landscaping now - when I need to haul materials or tools such as a lawnmower, or debris such as trash or downed tree limbs, I take my pickup. This provides income I would not obtain if I did not have a vehicle capable of carrying such things. When I do not need to drive a truck I take my car, which is gets very high gas mileage and is thus much economical to run. Other days I carpool, which saves even more money, but unfortunately I can’t rely on that method to get to work every day. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/170 "2009-08-23T14:29:28Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Honestly though, I wouldn’t mind if they limited the types of food one could purchase with the EBT food card, but what worries me is what they consider healthy. No shit. And why toilet paper and hand soap should be disallowed while junk food is condoned is beyond me. And don’t tell me it’s a food program … twinkies and coke? Probably junk food lobbyists at work. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/171 "2009-08-23T14:47:28Z")
I’m always amazed at how people like Carol Stream and curlcoat absolutely refused to budge from their narrow point of view, despite being shown they are factually wrong on any number of points. I see the same sort of behavior in some of my right wing friends as well. Sometimes I think it’s just irrational anger over not having the right wing in power any more. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/172 "2009-08-23T15:01:23Z")
**Broomstick** , I’m not sure if I’m in awe of your tenacity or worried about your stability in that you continue to engage with that woman. Surely after what, a half dozen threads, you must realize that you are talking to the human equivalent of a concrete block. Cut your losses. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/173 "2009-08-23T15:40:17Z")
Oh, I realize she’s too stubborn/stupid to ever budge, but it’s like having a sparring partner that never tires. I get to think up new counterarguments that might work on someone less obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/174 "2009-08-23T16:08:23Z")
**Broomstick** , I’m really happy to be learning that your financial situation is less dire than it was last year. Still, I get a little uncomfortable with you sharing such details in this thread, particularly. It feels to me like you are trying to justify yourself to the likes of these . . . [spec](http://genxdepot.com/store/images/bozobop.gif)i[mens](http://www.entertainmentearth.com/images//AUTOIMAGES/RC840.jpg). JFTR, you don’t need to. Oh well, if it’s working for you, I’ll not discourage you in posting whatever you feel comfortable with. Keep on keepin’ on. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/175 "2009-08-23T16:32:45Z")
I’m not really posting to change **curlcoat’s** mind - nothing will, of course. However, it is not good for other people in poverty to see such venom spewed without counter. Also, if a strategy that worked for me could work for someone else then it’s all good. It’s important for someone new to dealing with poverty (and there are far too many of those out there these days) to know that there are evil people who seek to punish others for there misfortune, and also to know they aren’t alone in dealing with such monsters. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/176 "2009-08-23T18:00:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > And I imagine there are plenty of middle class people in Indiana that don’t appreciate you paying for internet access while they help subsidize your insurance. You don’t have some idea that I am the only person in the country that is tired of watching my taxes go up to the point that I fear we won’t be able to pay them, do you? Okay I’ve been trying to get in touch with my nice side, but your post is beyond the pale. Listen you miserable selfish old hag. Just because the venom your heart pumps in lieu of human blood has shriveled itt to a mere throbbing raisin is no fucking reason to go all aggro on **Broomstick**. You need fucking internet access to find a fucking job these days. Mejier’s, Wal-Mart, Mcdonald’s, Best Buy, HomeDepot, all require internet. It’s common practice to email a digital copy of your resume for most jobs. Monster, Indeed, MichiganWorks (which IIRC she lives close enough to the border to maybe use), and many more are all job location services on the net. In addition many many many many papers put their classifieds on the web. Finally you selfish bitch who draws off the public dole, while hypocritically chastising others, have you ever paid tax in Indiana? I’ve at least payed sales tax there. I don’t fucking care what Indiana uses it for. I’m glad it’s doing some good. Where as you wag your shriveled gnarled finger from across the country. Well,\*\* CurlCoat\*\*, [here’s nsfw link](http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/) for you. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/177 "2009-08-23T19:57:41Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > If it’s none of my goddamned business, she shouldn’t have posted it on the boards. These are my recollections from the mammoth “Anything else you motherfuckers need” thread and from here. She recieves SSDI. Her husband is the bread winner by a fair margin. They aren’t “rich” but are comfortable. She knows little of the family financial details though her husband has a blue card from a previous employer. She can’t even cook. It’s always amusing to see the way you all twist what has been said, into what you choose to believe. > [@](#): > > For someone who is so antiwelfare, she’s living comfortably at present with very little effort of her own. Very little effort (which is actually debatable) _now_. I am now living off of what I worked for and earned all those years. > [@](#): > > She sees the entirety of them as parasites worthy of nothing but her scorn as they pay less in taxes than she does regardless of their circumstances as they are all gaming the system somehow all the while cashing her own government checks that she may not even need as her husband does most of the earning. Oh kettle. How black thou art. You might have a point if what you say was at all true. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Lastly, you commenting on something being needlessly mean? We find ourselves once again in the kingdom of pots and kettles. And, once again we find ourselves in the kingdom of - cite? (I won’t hold my breath). ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/178 "2009-08-23T20:01:57Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > > [@Harborwolf](#): > > > > If it’s none of my goddamned business, she shouldn’t have posted it on the boards. These are my recollections from the mammoth “Anything else you motherfuckers need” thread and from here. She recieves SSDI. Her husband is the bread winner by a fair margin. They aren’t “rich” but are comfortable. She knows little of the family financial details though her husband has a blue card from a previous employer. She can’t even cook. > > It’s always amusing to see the way you all twist what has been said, into what you choose to believe. In what way is any of what **Harborwolf** said even remotely untrue or exaggerated? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/179 "2009-08-23T20:05:40Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am now living off of what I worked for and earned all those years. No you’re not. How many times to you have to be told? You are living off the taxes the rest of us are paying. The money you paid in was immediately paid out to people who were in the system at that time. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bri1600bv-has-shown-me-the-light/506898/180 "2009-08-23T20:43:16Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You really don’t know, do you? Who pays your City Council and other city officials? You have not (and cannot) demonstrated that your property taxes are near exclusively funding ESL and/or programs for school-age undocumented aliens. My daddy used to call that “talkin’ out your ass.” I fail to see why it is necessary for me to know exactly where all of my tax money goes. I do know about the property tax, because the semi-annual statement tells us where that goes. As for me “demonstrating” that our school funds are being used to teach immigrant children to speak English - not my responsibility. It is a fact of life for southern California, which you would be able to see if you just bothered to do a little Googling. > [@](#): > > 😕 Who is talking about repealing the Fourteenth Amendment? Oh, right: Tom Tancredo, Mr. Bigotry ([thank you, Rolling Stone](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12054520/the_10_worst_congressmen/6)). Do you think we should also “reject the siren song of multiculturalism”? Even the National Review apparently thinks he’s an idiot. > > You really need to brush up on your current affairs. Or maybe you [should](http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2009/07/anchor_babies_n.html), eh? And perhaps something a bit more to the point than Rolling Stone. It isn’t about repealing anything, it’s about interpreting whether it applies to people who have a baby here for the express purpose of gaining citizenship and bypassing immigration. It has been a serious financial hardship on border states for a long time. > [@](#): > > I thought you guys didn’t want the illegals counted? Make up your minds. When did I ever say anything that would lead you to that conclusion? > [@](#): > > See, but you don’t have to pay in taxes to be eligible for government assistance, otherwise how would people who were disabled enough from birth/childhood to never be able to work get assistance? How would a career homemaker recently widowed be eligible for assistance? There are so many other examples like this, but you don’t seem to care about those. You simply want to broadbrush all poor people as undeserving and dishonest. Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. Actually, you are because I am not the one doing any broadbrushing here. Go back and read the examples I gave and quit trying to pretend that I am saying what I am not. > [@](#): > > Wait, were you just trying to justify your opposition to welfare based on how much property tax you pay? The mind truly boggles. I cannot be held responsible for you not being able to keep up. The property tax was in regards to the total amount of tax we have to pay and why we are not interested in having it added to by having a UHC. > [@](#): > > Actually, we’ve already established that you aren’t since you are no longer paying into the system. Really? I can quit paying property tax, sales tax, the taxes on our utilities, income tax, etc etc? > [@](#): > > Insofar as I can empathize with your frustration with your state’s budget crisis, you don’t really seem to understand (do you even care to understand?) what it is that UHC means to those who support it. It means they won’t have to spend money on insurance/healthcare. It means that those of us who have been earning our way, and went without insurance/healthcare when we were young will now be forced to pay for these people who would rather have things other than insurance/healthcare. Under one plan, it essentially means that they will be adding hundreds of thousands of people to the Medicaid program, which is already a poorly run extreme waste of tax money. Really, no matter how you look at it or what plan they finally pass, it boils down to expecting those who have money to hand it to those who don’t. > [@](#): > > I don’t necessarily want the government to take over all facets of health care. I want the government to make sure that the healthcare of those who can’t afford, or can’t obtain due to restrictions or unavailability, health insurance, is not neglected. We already have that. There are very few people out there who fall thru the cracks of not being eligible for Medicaid yet cannot afford or get private coverage. > [@](#): > > I want affordable health care for every U.S. citizen. I want better healthcare outcomes for less money. Why don’t you wish for flying ponies while you are at it? We have better healthcare here because money is spent to make it that way. Cheaper healthcare means clinics without on site labs, no MRI/EEGS/EKGs and only subsidized drugs. It means research into finding cures for the various cancers stops. Is that what you really want? > [@](#): > > Not everyone is as fortunate as you are The thing you all aren’t getting? I’m not “fortunate” - I worked extremely hard and put off quite a bit to get where I am now. Then you all come along and demand that I pay even more taxes to support people who didn’t put off doing whatever they wanted to do and so now “cannot afford” insurance. What was the point of doing without and saving if you all now think it is my responsibility to give up even more of what we have earned? > [@](#): > > For whatever reason, and there are many, people suffer and die needlessly No matter what you do, people are going to suffer and die, and sometimes it will be needlessly. Simply because the government is providing their healthcare does not in any way guarantee that everyone will have access to all the treatment/drugs they need. There is simply no way that the taxpayers can afford that. > [@](#): > > So, it’s in their best interest to allow the poor to starve, live on the streets, suffer untreated medical problems, and die? Were the poor much better off before the era of social services? Can you cite some examples of this ideal poverty? How far back to you have to go to find the utopia for the impoverished? There isn’t any utopia, but every year we have more poor people living off of the government. For far too many of them, there is no incentive to better themselves, to get an education, get a good job, to even get out of bed before noon. The more you hand people, the more dependent they become. > [@](#): > > I never said that your experiences were mine. I simply pointed out that your perception as shaped by your experiences is limited and not in line with reality. Since I lived decades as a poor person (sometimes a _very_ poor person), I’d say that my experience were extremely real and far more pertinent. 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