# Brian Williams Helicopter story: blowhard BS, but not a fireable offense **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953 "2015-02-06T07:09:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/201 "2015-02-20T18:57:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Were there bullets flying? Were there people being killed? It’s a “war zone”. Not formally, no, but it definitely can be described as a “was zone” Does this apply to Ferguson as well? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/202 "2015-02-20T19:05:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Does this apply to Ferguson as well? Yes. If a reporter said that he covered the Ferguson “war zone”, I’d have no problem with that. Or the 1992 LA riots “war zone”. Again, no problem. Why, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/203 "2015-02-20T19:11:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. If a reporter said that he covered the Ferguson “war zone”, I’d have no problem with that. Or the 1992 LA riots “war zone”. Again, no problem. Why, would you? Under normal circumstances, I would have a small problem with this. But this is key. If the LA riots had been in response to an actual war happening in, say, Iraq, and the reporter claimed during the Iraq War that he was reporting from the war zone, when he was in LA, I’d have a real big problem with it. When there’s an actual war going on, and a reporter claims to be in the war zone when he’s reporting about the actual war, it’s understood that he’s actually where that war is happening, not hundreds of miles away. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/204 "2015-02-20T19:15:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But this is key. If the LA riots had been in response to an actual war happening in, say, Iraq, and the reporter claimed during the Iraq War that he was reporting from the war zone, when he was in LA, I’d have a real big problem with it. “The war zone” or “a war zone”? Again, is there an actual O’Reilly quote that you can cite that is being objected to? ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/205 "2015-02-20T19:18:38Z")
Posted in the Fox thread too but: > **[Looks Like Brian Williams Isn't The Only One...](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2015/02/82590/bill-o-reilly-falkland-lies-brian-williams)** > > Fox news host Bill O'Reilly, according to reports, also lied considerably about his own war reporting, in the wake of the scandal around Brian Williams. > [@](#): > > The host also draws a distinction between his job and Williams’, saying he’s not required to give viewers unbiased facts. “It’s perfectly fine for commentators like me to give my opinion about events — that’s what I’m paid to do… But when hard-news people deceive their readers to advance a political agenda, that’s when the American people get hurt.” So…people don’t get hurt when O’Reilly lies because they know/should know that he’s a paid liar. But people get hurt when “hard-news” people lie because they’re expected to be telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/206 "2015-02-20T19:27:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “The war zone” or “a war zone”? > > Again, is there an actual O’Reilly quote that you can cite that is being objected to? Here are some quotes: > [@Bill O'Reilly](#): > > You know that I am not easily shocked. I’ve reported on the ground in active war zones from El Salvador to the Falklands. > > Having survived a combat situation in Argentina during the Falklands war, I know that life-and-death decisions are made in a flash. > > I was in a situation one time, in a war zone in Argentina, in the Falklands, where my photographer got run down and then hit his head and was bleeding from the ear on the concrete. And the army was chasing us. I had to make a decision. And I dragged him off, you know, but at the same time, I’m looking around and trying to do my job, but I figure I had to get this guy out of there because that was more important. If you refer to an active war zone in the Falklands, it is not reasonable to expect the reader to infer you mean a protest in Buenos Aires. That said, I kind of agree with **rock party**. Nobody who’s paying any attention at all should take O’Reilly seriously: he’s kind of the king of the full-of-shit blowhards, clearly an entertainer for those who desire the children to vacate their lawn. Williams is different, and it’s appropriate to hold him to different standards. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/207 "2015-02-20T20:28:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You know that I am not easily shocked. I’ve reported on the ground in active war zones from El Salvador to the Falklands. > > Having survived a combat situation in Argentina during the Falklands war, I know that life-and-death decisions are made in a flash. > > I was in a situation one time, in a war zone in Argentina, in the Falklands, where my photographer got run down and then hit his head and was bleeding from the ear on the concrete. And the army was chasing us. I had to make a decision. And I dragged him off, you know, but at the same time, I’m looking around and trying to do my job, but I figure I had to get this guy out of there because that was more important. If he was covering the situation in Buenos Aires and there was shooting and people killed, he can be excused calling it a “combat situation”. Saying “in Argentina during the Falkland war” is pretty accurate. On the other hand, saying “in the Falklands” when he wasn’t there is a fib. No question about it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/208 "2015-02-20T20:31:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If he was covering the situation in Buenos Aires and there was shooting and people killed, he can be excused calling it a “combat situation”. “combat situation in Argentina during the Falklands War” VERY heavily implies that the combat situation is part of the war. I mean, technically it could refer to a drunken bar fight in Buenos Aires, but it’s highly misleading phrasing. But from what I read, there are no contemporaneous news accounts of shootings or killings in Buenos Aires when he was there. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/209 "2015-02-20T20:52:03Z")
Even during the actual Falklands fighting, Buenos Aires was never in the “war zone,” either by the declarations or actions of either side. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/210 "2015-02-20T20:56:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Here are some quotes: > If you refer to an active war zone in the Falklands, it is not reasonable to expect the reader to infer you mean a protest in Buenos Aires. > > That said, I kind of agree with **rock party**. Nobody who’s paying any attention at all should take O’Reilly seriously: he’s kind of the king of the full-of-shit blowhards, clearly an entertainer for those who desire the children to vacate their lawn. Williams is different, and it’s appropriate to hold him to different standards. And where is O’Reilly’s subsequent claim that he meant a protest in Buenos Aires? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/211 "2015-02-20T21:03:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Those are not “similar.” > > O’Reilly’s claims are questioned by inference. Williams’ were refuted by direct contraction by another witness. > > In other words, O’Reilly said, “I saw a combat situation” and the refutation is, “I don’t know of any American reporters who were in the combat arena.” > > Williams said, “I was on this specific helicopter and it was damaged by shrapnel,” and the refutation is, “I was on the same helicopter with you, and it wasn’t.” > > And of course, as I said from the beginning with Williams, I do not believe he deliberately lied. [It don’t work when Howie Kurtz spins it](http://www.salon.com/2015/02/20/howie_kurtz_spins_for_oreilly_fox_news_media_reporter_explains_away_oreillys_war_zone_lies/) and it don’t work when you do either. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/212 "2015-02-20T21:03:58Z")
ISTM that the key O’Reilly question is whether the events he described actually happened, not where he was located. He is claiming he was in the midst of a thousand people storming the presidential palace and being shot at by the army. If this is true, then the fact that he wasn’t in the Falklands seems like a nitpick. If it’s not, then it’s a legitimate big deal. I see that his description of the riots have also been challenged, so he may be as guilty as BW. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/213 "2015-02-20T21:06:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And where is O’Reilly’s subsequent claim that he meant a protest in Buenos Aires? I’m not sure about that, to be honest–I’m relying on other folks here. The articles I read just cast severe doubt on the possibility of his being actually on the Falkland Islands at that time–they said that journalist access was very tightly controlled and was 100% British journalists. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/214 "2015-02-20T21:09:40Z")
A crucial difference between the BW controversy and this Bill O’Reilly thing: Brian Williams never denied having told the tale about the helicopter and the RPG fire. Instead, he said, “I spent much of the weekend thinking I’d gone crazy,” which at least initially was consistent with the possibility of a false memory. (This became harder to believe after the confabulations became too many to count.) Bill O’Reilly OTOH is denying having said things that are plainly in the public record as Bill O’Reilly statements. He’s flat-out lying without even trying to pass it off as an innocent mistake. I don’t think he needs to lose his job as an entertainer but he’s clearly even more of a [hypocritical dickhead](http://townhall.com/news/around-the-web/2015/02/12/oreilly-on-brian-williams-time-to-open-that-proverbial-network-window-and-yell-were-mad-as-hell-n1956583) than I already thought he was. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/215 "2015-02-20T23:42:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [It don’t work when Howie Kurtz spins it](http://www.salon.com/2015/02/20/howie_kurtz_spins_for_oreilly_fox_news_media_reporter_explains_away_oreillys_war_zone_lies/) and it don’t work when you do either. This is Great Debates. You’ve offered a strawman, by suggesting that my argument is identical to someone else’s and then (by proxy, no less) claiming that the other argument is disproved. If you can refute anything I’m saying, I’d invite you to quote my post, and then type out your refutation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/216 "2015-02-20T23:44:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not sure about that, to be honest–I’m relying on other folks here. The articles I read just cast severe doubt on the possibility of his being actually on the Falkland Islands at that time–they said that journalist access was very tightly controlled and was 100% British journalists. I don’t know the specifics, to be sure, but my amateur sense of the issue is that a place big enough to house nearly 3,000 residents can’t be all that “tightly” controlled without more severe measures than I have heard of during the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/217 "2015-02-20T23:46:06Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > A crucial difference between the BW controversy and this Bill O’Reilly thing: > > Brian Williams never denied having told the tale about the helicopter and the RPG fire. Instead, he said, “I spent much of the weekend thinking I’d gone crazy,” which at least initially was consistent with the possibility of a false memory. (This became harder to believe after the confabulations became too many to count.) > > Bill O’Reilly OTOH is denying having said things that are plainly in the public record as Bill O’Reilly statements. He’s flat-out lying without even trying to pass it off as an innocent mistake. I don’t think he needs to lose his job as an entertainer but he’s clearly even more of a [hypocritical dickhead](http://townhall.com/news/around-the-web/2015/02/12/oreilly-on-brian-williams-time-to-open-that-proverbial-network-window-and-yell-were-mad-as-hell-n1956583) than I already thought he was. I’d be convinced of that. If you were to provide a link to such a statement, and a link to the plain public record in question. Your link doesn’t show either of those things. Does it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/218 "2015-02-20T23:47:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know the specifics, to be sure, but my amateur sense of the issue is that a place big enough to house nearly 3,000 residents can’t be all that “tightly” controlled without more severe measures than I have heard of during the conflict. I’m very surprised by this idea, that during an active war, the British Army would be unable to prevent reporters from coming in to a tiny island. At this point, if you’re interested in specifics, I’d invite you to do some Googling. There are many articles online, and if you have specific questions, it’s much more efficient for you to do the preliminary research instead of continuing to ask me the questions and hoping I’ll go research the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/219 "2015-02-21T00:01:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know the specifics, to be sure, but my amateur sense of the issue is that a place big enough to house nearly 3,000 residents can’t be all that “tightly” controlled without more severe measures than I have heard of during the conflict. You are theorizing that at some time after arriving in Buenos Aires in 1982, he traveled hundreds of miles to the offshore war zone, by some clandestine private means (there being no active civilian connection with the mainland, and no facilitation for American journalists by either side), had dangerous escapades including “a combat situation” and “being chased by the army,” and then got out again… _and he failed to tell any of this story in his own memoir_, apart from the visit to B.A.? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/220 "2015-02-21T00:14:20Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > You are theorizing that at some time after arriving in Buenos Aires in 1982, he traveled hundreds of miles to the offshore war zone, by some clandestine private means (there being no active civilian connection with the mainland, and no facilitation for American journalists by either side), had dangerous escapades including “a combat situation” and “being chased by the army,” and then got out again… _and he failed to tell any of this story in his own memoir_, apart from the visit to B.A.? This is very well put–I was thinking about his self-aggrandizing ways and the lack of any report of his sneaky self-smuggling, but you put it far more coherently than I did even in my head. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953.md?page=12)