# Brian Williams Helicopter story: blowhard BS, but not a fireable offense **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953 "2015-02-06T07:09:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/41 "2015-02-06T19:54:47Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Still, is that what you want from the person who is supposed to only be telling you facts? The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it seems to presuppose there’s two kinds of people in the world–those who are susceptible to having false memories, and those who are not; and people of the former kind should not be managing editors, presidents, etc. I’m no expert but AFAICT it would be more accurate to describe it as a universal bug in the human psyche. The book _The Invisible Gorilla_ devotes a chapter to this topic and discusses, in addition to the HRC false memory, George W. Bush’s claim that he saw video of the first plane hitting the WTC on a TV screen prior to entering the classroom where he read to the kindergarteners. Well, the only problem is that the first plane _wasn’t caught on camera_. So, he was either 1) lying, 2) had a false memory, or 3) did indeed watch the first plane hit because he was in on the whole thing and secretly watching it (as some 9/11 truthers concluded from hearing the story). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/42 "2015-02-06T20:06:22Z")
I’ve never been in combat, but I would imagine that if an RPG hit one’s helicopter, one would _know_ - assuming the RPG went off explosively with full normal force. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/43 "2015-02-06T20:08:54Z")
There are at least a couple of people posting in this thread that get their news almost exclusively from Fox News and Talk Radio. I wonder if they apply the same standards to those sources? If Fox fired everyone who told lies on the air, they’d be lucky to fill two hours of airtime a day. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/44 "2015-02-06T20:18:58Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > and people of the former kind should not be managing editors, presidents, This has nothing to do with presidents. Presidents are politicians. Politicians are required to lie at least 3 times a day or they have to go to bed without their dessert. Journalists and people who are paid to tell me facts should be held to a higher standard. Can we let go of Bush already or should I start bringing up lies Clinton told? And how far back do we want to go, Polk, Adams? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/45 "2015-02-06T20:19:13Z")
It’s one thing to exaggerate the size of the fish you caught, it’s another thing to lie about catching a fish in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/46 "2015-02-06T20:32:41Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > It’s one thing to exaggerate the size of the fish you caught, it’s another thing to lie about catching a fish in the first place. Yeah, but in this case, [based on what Stars and Stripes is saying](http://www.stripes.com/news/us/nbc-s-brian-williams-recants-iraq-story-after-soldiers-protest-1.327792), the only time HE actually claimed that he was on the helicopter that was hit by the RPG was last week. All the others were either him saying that it was another helicopter, or someone else reporting it. In this case, it sounds like 12 years after a fishing trip, he remembered that a fish got caught, and mistakenly thought he’d caught it, when in fact, his buddy had caught it. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/47 "2015-02-06T20:35:30Z")
He told a personal anecdote that was, except for the most exciting detail, true. On an outrage scale I give this a -2. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/48 "2015-02-06T20:38:20Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Journalists and people who are paid to tell me facts should be held to a higher standard. The point is, if your standard is “their brain doesn’t create false memories”, you’re not going to find anyone qualified. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/49 "2015-02-06T20:46:03Z")
If he arrived an hour later it sounds like his aircraft probably waited 'til it was cleared and positively safe. So almost zero risk, then. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/50 "2015-02-06T20:49:03Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > [CNN now reports](http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/06/media/stelter-iraq-pilots/index.html) that that pilot (Richard Krell, who the other pilots say was not flying the Chinook that Brian Williams was in) is no longer standing by his story, saying “the information I gave you was true based on my memories, but at this point I am questioning my memories.” So, pilot (or probably not even his pilot)-- is he also a liar, or false memories? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/51 "2015-02-06T21:02:30Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Does anybody actually think news anchors are trustworthy? They’re paid personalities, just like Lady Gaga and Shrek. The guys on camera aren’t reporters or journalists, despite their pretenses. They just read what the teleprompter says. I’ve met a few TV news reporters in the Bay Area. Leslie Griffiths, Belva Davis and Vern Hawkins. They are amazingly smart people. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Wait, why is it clear that he was lying instead of false remembering? It isn’t. But for the purposes of what I consume as news, there is very little difference. Just as a bought judge is just as bad as a biased judge for the party on the short end. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/52 "2015-02-06T21:04:05Z")
I think this represents a serious lack of integrity on his part. I think it would be reasonable to fire him over this. That is a decision that should be made by NBC based on how it effects thier viewership. What I find is complete bullshit is the calls from the right for him to be fired. If you don’t even watch NBC to begin with what business is it of yours? Some are trying to take advantage of this incident to try and take out an industry rival. Thier calls to have him fired makes me seriously question thier integrity, which by thier own standards should result in thier own firings right? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/53 "2015-02-06T21:12:44Z")
I don’t have a problem with NBC firing him if they feel that it’s the right thing to do. But the batshit over the top reaction from the right wing is sad and predictable. NBC and MSNBC are the whipping boys for the right wing and the right just wants a bloody scalp to wave. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/54 "2015-02-06T21:17:39Z")
It was 12 years ago. No one, including the soldiers that were there can be expected to have and accurate record of events, just from their own memories. What this “scandal” should show people is how unreliable human memory is as a record of events. Intuitively, it would seem that no one would “misremember” such a major event. But intuition is often wrong, and the science is pretty clear. A memory isn’t a write-once recording. It’s at best a fuzzy outline of events, where the brain often just invents details to fill in the gaps. Even if the original outline is false, the brain will still make up details to fill in the gaps (see “Lost in a mall” study). It’s susceptible to “interference”. That is it, our memory of events is disrupted and changed by other events, things we hear and see, and memories of earlier events. Additionally, memories are altered every time we recall them. While his helicopter may not have been shot down, what Williams did experience was probably still a scary and dramatic event. He probably later heard the story of the other helicopter being shot down, and based on the emotional memory of what he did experience, his brain conflated the two events. Once this new memory was established, his brain went to work filling in all the details, and it became just a vivid and real as any other memory. Williams, being human is susceptible to the same quirks of human memory as any one else. It seems much more likely to me that really did just misremember events than a seasoned journalist would fabricate such an easily checked story. Especially knowing that it could destroy his career and reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/55 "2015-02-06T21:47:28Z")
Waitaminute - Shrek gets _ **paid?** _ I thought he was an animated character! My whole world is shaken. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/56 "2015-02-06T22:21:39Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > What I find is complete bullshit is the calls from the right for him to be fired. If you don’t even watch NBC to begin with what business is it of yours? Good point. It’s like those people who made a stink about Rolling Stone’s UVA rape story, when they weren’t regular Rolling Stone readers. On the other hand, I’m allowed to bitch about bad reporting on GMOs in Consumer Reports, because I have a subscription. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/57 "2015-02-06T23:42:38Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > What I find is complete bullshit is the calls from the right for him to be fired. If you don’t even watch NBC to begin with what business is it of yours? Just like people here who criticize Fox News. Right? I’d agree with your wider points, but that was too easy to pass up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/58 "2015-02-06T23:51:51Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > What I find is complete bullshit is the calls from the right for him to be fired. If you don’t even watch NBC to begin with what business is it of yours? Some are trying to take advantage of this incident to try and take out an industry rival. Thier calls to have him fired makes me seriously question thier integrity, which by thier own standards should result in thier own firings right? Of course it is bullshit, but the right makes those calls because they do believe the propaganda from the right that outfits like NBC are liberal. So they have to “make things more fair” [after many years of seeing how many critics of FOX told them with evidence that most of their reporters should had been fired a long time ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=667548). As usual discussions like this ones are the \*\*only \*\*times I check at what leftist sources like the Democratic Underground [are commenting about the controversy](http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141005981). Not many defenders of Williams, the defenses are mostly about being fair and remembering how human memory is not reliable, but most do remind others that NBC remains a part of the corporate media, so more than a few agree that he should be sacked… Or that he should move to FOX News. 🙂 The point here is what I have noticed in many of this discussions, that a good number of people on the right do not have a good understanding of how the mainstream media is seen by many on the left side in the USA. The mainstream is not really as responsive to what the left (and the center) sees[as important issues](http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/washington/media-matters-climate-coverage-nets-increasing/137516). The Right wing media and the corporate one do know which side of the bread is buttered. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/59 "2015-02-07T00:52:27Z")
It’s pretty god-damned difficult to believe a newscaster went on David Letterman and told a harrowing story, much to the benefit of his credentials and aggrandized “street cred,” only to turn out he was in a helicopter that experienced no such traumatic event and he simply misremembered. He lied to make himself look good. Whether or not he deserves to lose his job is debatable, but not that his memory is so bad he couldn’t remember the story. He sure told it well enough on The Late Show. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/60 "2015-02-07T01:33:10Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > It was 12 years ago. No one, including the soldiers that were there can be expected to have and accurate record of events, just from their own memories. > > What this “scandal” should show people is how unreliable human memory is as a record of events. Intuitively, it would seem that no one would “misremember” such a major event. But intuition is often wrong, and the science is pretty clear. > > A memory isn’t a write-once recording. It’s at best a fuzzy outline of events, where the brain often just invents details to fill in the gaps. Even if the original outline is false, the brain will still make up details to fill in the gaps (see “Lost in a mall” study). It’s susceptible to “interference”. That is it, our memory of events is disrupted and changed by other events, things we hear and see, and memories of earlier events. Additionally, memories are altered every time we recall them. > > While his helicopter may not have been shot down, what Williams did experience was probably still a scary and dramatic event. He probably later heard the story of the other helicopter being shot down, and based on the emotional memory of what he did experience, his brain conflated the two events. Once this new memory was established, his brain went to work filling in all the details, and it became just a vivid and real as any other memory. > > Williams, being human is susceptible to the same quirks of human memory as any one else. It seems much more likely to me that really did just misremember events than a seasoned journalist would fabricate such an easily checked story. Especially knowing that it could destroy his career and reputation. Perhaps, but from personal experience I can tell you that a person will never mistake being fired on with, you know, not. You just don’t get confused about whether or not your helicopter was hit with an RPG, or if your hooch was hit with incoming mortar or rocket fire, or if your vehicle ran over an IED. It’s been over 40 years and I remember it like it was yesterday. It’s more likely that the more he embellished the story over the years without being challenged, the more loosely he played with the facts, and then couldn’t back out of it without looking foolish and dishonest. And whaddya know: he does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953.md?page=4)