# Brian Williams Helicopter story: blowhard BS, but not a fireable offense **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953 "2015-02-06T07:09:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/101 "2015-02-08T23:06:26Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > The thing I find interesting is that Williams admits that he found his own writing on the matter from '08 that confirms that he was not on the bird that was hit. I guess it is possible that he put himself in the wrong bird in his own head but, to me, it seems improbable. Maybe if he had been in other choppers that were fired on in the past and just confused the two stories but I’m not aware that he has ever experienced anything similar. > > A talking head on some news program brought up an interesting point. Others would have known that his story had been embellished. Certainly his family or others in the crew would have heard the true account in the past and would have told him that he was confused about being shot at. How did that not happen? At this point, much of the stories revolve around other people’s memories. There may be some records, but there aren’t any records about what Brian Williams experienced or how traumatized he was by the experience that may have confused different memories. But [he’s not the only one](http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/06/media/stelter-iraq-pilots/index.html). A military person came forward during the controversy, initally saying that he piloted the aircraft that Williams was flying in that was being fired upon. After being confronted by other people in the military who relayed the story differently, that person recanted. > [@](#): > > That pilot, Rich Krell, told me he was flying the helicopter Williams was on in Iraq – an account now contradicted by several other soldiers. > > On Friday morning, Krell told me that “the information I gave you was true based on my memories, but at this point I am questioning my memories.” Before retracting his recollection, Krell stated to a journalist: > [@](#): > > But Krell said all three of the helicopters came under “small arms fire,” lending support to the stories Williams told over the years about being “under fire” in Iraq. If people are looking to find other people to bolster their stories, it’s probably possible to find one, depending on how the wind of the political and social climate is blowing. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/102 "2015-02-08T23:06:59Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > If he arrived an hour later it sounds like his aircraft probably waited 'til it was cleared and positively safe. > > So almost zero risk, then. Is that how it worked in Iraqi airspace, during that war? One copter gets hit by an RPG, then another travelling within the hour over the same route is at zero risk? How did that Clearing and declaration of Positively Safe work? > [@magellan01](#): > > You don’t misremember being in a helicopter that gets shot with an RPG. Those making statements of this sort seem to be picturing the getting “shot with an RPG” as some dramatic vaporizing of a significant chunk of the helicopter and then a fiery crash. Certainly such a thing _would_ be memorable. But if you look at photos of the actual copter hit in the 2003 incident in question, you see nothing remotely as dramatic. [http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/02/06/business/06WILLIAMSCOMBO/06WILLIAMSCOMBO-master1050.jpg](http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/02/06/business/06WILLIAMSCOMBO/06WILLIAMSCOMBO-master1050.jpg) There’s some ripped-up metal in one bit of the copter. No doubt there was a shock of impact, and no doubt it was noisy. But other copters flying through the same territory were unlikely to be smooth and silent. There was, apparently, a sandstorm–any copter flying that route would have been noisy and lurching about. It really doesn’t look as clear-cut as some are claiming (that a passenger would have known for certain what had happened). I don’t admire Brian Williams’ obvious tendency to make a story “better.” He’s clearly long been in the habit of burnishing his image as Real Journalist–no mere desk jockey, he! What a guy! What a courageous reporter! Etc. But, face it: no one gets the job of being a network anchor/managing editor without having a pretty notable talent for self-promotion. If we want Stars reading our news, then we are going to get people with Star personality traits. We are going to get showboats. We are going to get people who make a good story “better.” Bring back Bill Moyers! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/103 "2015-02-09T00:15:35Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > What trauma? Trauma might be too heavy a word. “Excitement” might be better, but that’s not heavy enough, I think. My understanding is he flew through a war zone in a helicopter, an hour behind a helicopter that was hit by an RPG. It’s possible as he was flying that people were talking about the helicopter that had been hit. Then he landed in a place near the hit helicopter and saw a bunch of tanks nearby. There’s an eensy chance that tensions were high and a smidgen of a chance that he was concerned for his own safety during that time, and that these emotional memories have been confused. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/104 "2015-02-09T00:36:23Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **JTgain** , surely you know that witnesses can be persuaded that they themselves committed murders, when they actually had nothing at all to do with the murder that happened! Right, but that is usually after hours of intense, high pressure interrogation accusing them of committing the crime, and after hours of denial. Nobody put this bug in Brian Williams’ head. I don’t think the analogy is apt. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/105 "2015-02-09T01:37:21Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > First hand experience into how our own memories have failed us and remembered things that did not happen. Eyewitness accounts are unreliable. [I guess it’s all how you remember your combat injuries.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCLN7Rfdut8) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/106 "2015-02-09T03:08:32Z")
If fired, I sure hope this new standard of reporting integrity and its consequences carries over to the Fair and Ballanced network. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/107 "2015-02-09T04:27:56Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > If fired, I sure hope this new standard of reporting integrity and its consequences carries over to the Fair and Ballanced network. Far more likely, he could carry himself over to the “Fair” and “Balanced” network. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/108 "2015-02-09T04:48:03Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > At this point, much of the stories revolve around other people’s memories. There may be some records, but there aren’t any records about what Brian Williams experienced or how traumatized he was by the experience that may have confused different memories. > > But [he’s not the only one](http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/06/media/stelter-iraq-pilots/index.html). A military person came forward during the controversy, initally saying that he piloted the aircraft that Williams was flying in that was being fired upon. After being confronted by other people in the military who relayed the story differently, that person recanted. Well, we have Williams’ own words and his admission that in '08 he wrote that he was in a chopper behind the one that was fired upon. The thing that strikes me the most is that he must have gone home and told his family what happened. I’m surprised that they didn’t remember what was told to them…assuming he told his family initially that he was in the chopper behind the one that was fired upon. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/109 "2015-02-09T04:54:19Z")
Consistent with my speculation above, Maureen Dowd is reporting that NBC executives have known of problems with Williams’s story for some time now. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/110 "2015-02-09T05:22:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Maureen Dowd is reporting that NBC executives have known of problems with Williams’s story for some time now. This aspect has puzzled me. Williams was part of an NBC news crew aboard that helicopter, all of whom knew the truth about what happened. So why was no one saying anything when he started offering fanciful versions of the incident? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/111 "2015-02-09T09:36:11Z")
Taking some bits out of order: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > But other copters flying through the same territory were unlikely to be smooth and silent. There was, apparently, a sandstorm–any copter flying that route would have been noisy and lurching about. It was a Chinook. I’ve flown in a Chinook. I laughed my ass reading this because smooth and silent has no correlation to Chinooks. He would have been wearing hearing protection just to deal with routine noise. He wouldn’t have been able to effectively talk to anyone except via intercom (if he and that other person even had a headset.) Even flying straight and level in clear skies the experience is kind of like riding in the back of a dumptruck due to the shake from the twin rotors. Chinooks are big, loud, shaky, and leaky things. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Those making statements of this sort seem to be picturing the getting “shot with an RPG” as some dramatic vaporizing of a significant chunk of the helicopter and then a fiery crash. Certainly such a thing _would_ be memorable. > > It really doesn’t look as clear-cut as some are claiming (that a passenger would have known for certain what had happened). I’ve seen anti-tank weapons firing and exploding in person. The effect isn’t Hollywood flashy but it’s still relatively dramatic. If nothing else the sudden light through the new “window” into the mostly dark confines is a hint that something bad happened. I could still see not knowing _what_ happened as a piece of meat riding in the back of that big shaky can. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/112 "2015-02-09T17:14:44Z")
Like others have said, memory is notoriously faulty. There are tales of me in college that are (IMO) inflated, with me picking someone up by their shirt, etc… I don’t remember doing that at all- I do remember grabbing the guy by the front of his shirt, and he was definitely quite a bit smaller than I was, but I don’t remember any effort to pick him up. However, several of my friends swear in all seriousness that I lifted him off the ground while reading him the riot act (I was a RA). Who’s right? I don’t remember it- all I remember was this clown doing something disruptive and annoying, and confronting him in an intimidating way, and my friends swear I lifted him off the ground and threatened him. Nobody was drunk, it wasn’t that late at night, and we weren’t under undue stress at the time. It’s really easy for me to believe that Brian Williams’ helicopter might have been under small arms fire (what he said until the most recent statement) and landed with the helicopter hit by the RPG, and he got it mixed up and assumed that HIS helicopter was the one that was hit. Considering that his memories were probably jumbled by stress, jet lag and whatever else, plus 12 years of intervening time, it’s not unlikely that at best, he wouldn’t remember it exactly, and that at worst, he’d have it completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/113 "2015-02-09T18:08:03Z")
[irresistible hijack] [Ronald Reagan’s wartime lies: The president had quite a Brian Williams problem.](http://www.salon.com/2015/02/07/ronald_reagans_wartime_lies_the_president_had_quite_a_brian_williams_problem/) [/ir] ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/114 "2015-02-09T18:21:04Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Wait, why is it clear that he was lying instead of false remembering? > > It seems to me that this claim rests on the notion that no one ever falsely remembers something traumatic like being shot at. But, of course, the whole phenomenon of false memories is mostly focused on false memories of traumatic incidents. > > If what happened here is that Williams flew in on a helicopter shortly after this incident that also took evasive maneuvers, and he saw the shot up helicopter when he landed, and he was generally scared during the whole encounter, I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say he could have falsely remembered it as himself being in the helicopter. This sounds reasonable to me. We hear all the time of false memories during a terrifying moment in someone’s life, and they jump up and down swearing that it was true, it happened. Maybe he suffered a moment of “delusions of grandeur”. A couple weeks off the air and all will subside, and everyone will forget when the next “big story” comes along. We (the general public) seem to be like this nowadays. If he stays on the air, the ratings will tell the story. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/115 "2015-02-09T19:24:19Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s really easy for me to believe that Brian Williams’ helicopter might have been under small arms fire (what he said until the most recent statement) and landed with the helicopter hit by the RPG, and he got it mixed up and assumed that HIS helicopter was the one that was hit. It appears no one is now claiming that his helicopter was anywhere near ground fire. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/116 "2015-02-09T21:17:10Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > It was a Chinook. I’ve flown in a Chinook. I laughed my ass reading this because smooth and silent has no correlation to Chinooks. He would have been wearing hearing protection just to deal with routine noise. He wouldn’t have been able to effectively talk to anyone except via intercom (if he and that other person even had a headset.) Even flying straight and level in clear skies the experience is kind of like riding in the back of a dumptruck due to the shake from the twin rotors. Chinooks are big, loud, shaky, and leaky things. Thanks–based on things I’ve heard I felt safe in assuming that “smooth and silent” couldn’t have been the case, but it’s good to have the verification about Chinooks. > [@DinoR](#): > > I’ve seen anti-tank weapons firing and exploding in person. The effect isn’t Hollywood flashy but it’s still relatively dramatic. If nothing else the sudden light through the new “window” into the mostly dark confines is a hint that something bad happened. I could still see not knowing _what_ happened as a piece of meat riding in the back of that big shaky can. This makes sense, but I will say that the photo makes it look as though the RPG hit wasn’t through the cabin. Can’t tell for certain, though. For me the bottom line is that it would NOT necessarily have been clear-cut for a passenger that an RPG had impacted the copter (particularly if the impact hadn’t been through the cabin wall). Yet it’s still the case that Williams was self-serving in his “modest” accounts of what he’d been through. In 2003 he truly was reporting from a dangerous place, and he may genuinely have come to believe that his copter had been hit. But even if he believed his memories were accurate, he should have double-checked the details before making his claims. His conduct was self-aggrandizing and unattractive in any public figure (and that goes, too, for Ronald Reagan, Hillary Clinton, and anyone else guilty of ‘improving’ their stories). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/117 "2015-02-09T22:35:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [irresistible hijack] > > [Ronald Reagan’s wartime lies: The president had quite a Brian Williams problem.](http://www.salon.com/2015/02/07/ronald_reagans_wartime_lies_the_president_had_quite_a_brian_williams_problem/) > > [/ir] Actually a better example would be John Kerry’s silly “Christmas in Cambodia” story. Granted, he actually saw combat and was a decorated war hero. Oliver North was famous for exaggerating his own war record. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/118 "2015-02-10T12:07:21Z")
Am I right in thinking all of this is about a guy who reads an autocue for a living, or am I missing (possibly) quite a lot? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/119 "2015-02-10T12:31:51Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > Am I right in thinking all of this is about a guy who reads an autocue for a living, or am I missing (possibly) quite a lot? He is the managing editor of NBC News. He has editorial control over everything that gets broadcast. He is not just an announcer reading other’s work. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953/120 "2015-02-10T12:39:39Z")
Okay thanks, that is important. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brian-williams-helicopter-story-blowhard-bs-but-not-a-fireable-offense/711953.md?page=7)