# Bricker: Got A Second? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343 "2004-11-23T20:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/181 "2004-11-26T16:58:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But I gotta say, all this moaning about each side “poolicing” its own is really childish. That would be “ **policing** ”… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/182 "2004-11-26T17:06:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Red Furry** Please tell me that’s a typo and not just sophomoric namecalling. Gaah, I hate when people do that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/183 "2004-11-26T17:35:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Please tell me that’s a typo and not just sophomoric namecalling. > > Gaah, I hate when people do that. It’s neither. It’s having a spot of fun with the username of a poster who, I’m pretty sure, already knows I hold in cordial regard and has enough of a sense of humor to accept it as such. In case it as escaped your notice, the entire post is intended as a spot of good natured ribbing. Hell, if I got my knickers in a twist everytime someone called me **Lucy** , I wouldn’t have time to indulge my hobby of hunting down packs of wild chihuahua. Got my faults. Its a long list but “delicate” and “touchy” ain’t on it. > [@JohnMace](#): > > …Can we all at least agree that the whole “boat people” episode was a tragedy of epic scale?.. Without hesitation, but perhaps a quibble over “epic”. Tomato, tomahto. Doubtless, the “epic scale” can apply to the VN war as a whole, and I certainly do not agree with what _appears_ to be **Sam’s** determination to lay all the responsibility at the doorstep of his political opponents. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/184 "2004-11-26T17:50:29Z")
**’luc** Not that I need to tell you – although I’m sure you won’t mind – that you are a master at irony and sarcam, and moreoever, that through those artifices you’re often capable of paring your opponent’s arguments down to their marrowless bones. And that’s all well and fine and even admirable in its effective restraint. But you know what? My favorite posts of yours are precisely those that allow us a glimpse behind the cynical facade. It is in those rare moments of yours, devoid of flowery rethoric and witty repartee, when I can see that we very much share the same sense of outrage vis-a-vis the direction your country’s taken. All the lies, the mindless killing, the lost youth of those used as mere instruments of death, the out and out quest for power at the expense of those that have little, in sum, the Big Dog approach – my way or die. It is in that solidarity of feeling, with you and many others here, that I find the strenght _not_ to give up on Americans as whole. That there are still (hopefully) as many of you left as when I first discovered – and fell in love – with your country nearly fourty years ago. The peope I remember from back then were for the most part friendly, tolerant, open, progressive, and most of all, humble and peaceful. Quite a ways from what I’ve seen happening in the past four years. True enough, I am not naive enough not to realize that regardless of which party is in power, the US – as any other nation throughout history – places their interests in front of anything and everything else. That’s easy enough to corroborate just by virtue of reding a few history books. But something fundamental’s changed in the past four years. And that’s the utter arrogance and complete disregard for diplomacy that’s been shown by the Bush’s ‘might makes right’ cabal. But even beyond that, what’s really surprising and alarming to me is the willingness of large segments of your society to go along with said radicals because it squarely impacts with the opposite perception I’ve held of your countrymen and women for so long. Yes, we can go on and on about the impact of 9/11 and the continued manipulation of said events to this day and how the combination of both has led you down this path. But rather than keep engaging in navel gazing, I think what your country really needs is to be shaken out of its doldrums. And it that vein, as I told **gobear** the other day, I also think it takes all kinds to do so. Whether it’s the almost interminably pacient such as **Svin and Simon-X** , the always polite as \*\*tomdebb \*\*, conciliators such as **gobear** himself, militants such as **Dio** or **Stoid** , hard-edged cynics such as yourself, or scornful pricks such as myself, I think the goal is the same. To put a stop to this madness. I feel that it’s the least we can try to do for future generations – if there are to be any. At least we can say we went down fighting. Yes, I think the issue is, or to be more exact, is becoming as grave as that. BTW, in keeping with said topic, what happened to the anti-war movement that was so strong prior to the invasion? Isn’t it about time we re-kindle that particular fire? Fuck. World’s so fucking lacking in leadership it’s almost no wonder so many Americans think of DimSon as being one. Anyhow, I’ll let you know how I _really_ think in some other post. Y no, no pasaran, coño! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/185 "2004-11-26T18:57:39Z")
Companero: Let me first assure you, I am not in the least bit cynical. I have met cynics, each and every one regards themselves as nothing more than hard-headed and realistic. By comparison, I am a dewy-eyed Pollyanna, I believe in compassion and mercy despite Cambodia, despite Rwanda. I believe in justice and freedom, despite the near universal victories of the ruthless and brutal. Because that’s just it, isn’t it? We play poker with the Dark One, all our cards are dealt face up, and he gets to draw twice, and yet! sometimes we win. That isn’t possible. But it happens. Permit me to bore you witless. I come from a conservative heritage that I embraced entirely, Ayn Rand was my lodestone, it was perfectly clear to me that the world should be in the charge of the intellegent elite. By a happy coincidence, I considered myself one of that number. I read socialist views, things of that nature, with the calm assurance that I had dismantled each and every one of their arguments with entire ease. At a bookstore I frequented, on my way to karate class, I dug out an obscure and poorly printed rag, _The Realist_, the product of the entirely scurrilous and disreputable Paul Krassner (may the Good Lord bless him and keep him all the days of his life!). It was the utterest blasphemy, he mocked and sneered at everything I held to be truth, he scorned my viewpoints with bitter humor and…he made me laugh. It was only the first crack in the armor, but it was as sure a doom as a positive biopsy: my worldview was, at least partly, ridiculous. I never recovered. John Stewart’s _Daily Show_ does more patriotic service than a battalion of Howard Deans and John Kerrys. We don’t need another Lincoln, we need another Mark Twain. I am not a cynic, friend **Red**. I am a fool, and I am in the very best of company. Yours, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/186 "2004-11-26T19:16:37Z")
**elucidator** and **Red Fury** : Aww, man. Here I was ready to go stomping off into cyberspace, cursing the Straight Dope to hell forever and never looking back. And then you two pop up and start all this Kumbaya shit. (Seriously, thanks for the encouragement. I really was about to throw in the towel.) Tim ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/187 "2004-11-26T19:18:43Z")
**Mr. Svinlesha** , I do very much hope that your parting line is only in reference to engagement with **Sam Stone**. I would wholeheartedly endorse such. If you mean from the board at large - well, that is quite sad. And, sheepishly, I must say that I am thankful to **RedFury**. I feel I have found a banner and a group to which I might belong. I am incapable of belonging to the interminably patient, the polite or the concilators. If I am a hard-edged cynic, I don’t feel it in my bones. I may share much with the militants, but if I might stand beside you as a proud scornful prick, I would be honored! **elucidator** , I try to be mindful of your message, since I have come to believe that no headway can be made with those committed to a party and not the country. Like **RedFury** , I fully believe that it is their intent to deceive and distract. They worship at the alter of Rove. Perhaps there are lurkers who find utility in the argument. It’s hard work, though. Hard, hard work. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/188 "2004-11-26T19:26:07Z")
Hey elucidator! This thread is a mess, but that was absolutely brilliant. Especially that last part (almost Socratian) and the way you tied it together with the beginning is I think the best I’ve read here on SDMB. If you could just write like that in political threads I assure you, you would make a bleeding red liberal of me in no time. I was going to write something about arrogance, fanatical belief of owing the truth, complete inability to reach across and see the matter from the other side, Svinlesha and RedFury here, but think I’ll leave on a positive note instead. (heh) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/189 "2004-11-26T19:44:47Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **’luc** > > At least we can say we went down fighting. Exactly. But man…look at the company! I’m gettin’ all dewy eyed. I love you guys. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/190 "2004-11-26T19:48:59Z")
**Hentor** : Yeah, I was on the verge of giving up this place for good. **Rune** : Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. A while back a poster started a thread in which he asked others to debate the Iraq war from the position opposite their own. After some careful forethought I obliged, and laid out in as forceful, clear, and logical manner I could the strongest arguments for a unilateral US invasion of Iraq. (If I remember correctly, I really was the only one who gave a serious shot at fairly representing the position of the other side, although a couple of war-supporters did drop in to write parody arguments of the anti-war views.) In the space of about two hours two posters commented that my arguments had changed their minds and led them to hop off the fence and conclude that the war was absolutely necessary. I’'ll see if I can locate the thread. But anyway, the idea that I somehow don’t understand the other side, or that I lay claim to owning the truth, is simply ludicrous. Prove to me with clear, straightforward arguments and compelling evidence that those tubes were suitable, and intended for, use as enrichment centrifuges, and I will gladly concede the point. Actually, the problem is, as usual, quite the opposite. Please point me to a single post in which **Sam** , **Shodan** , or the other pro-war apologists on this board have _ever_ conceded that the anti-war side had a point – even in the face of the WMD fiasco. Shit: **Shodan** is still arguing that they actually found WMDs in Iraq. And in the face of that, you think _I’m_ being unreasonable? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/191 "2004-11-26T19:55:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Without hesitation, but perhaps a quibble over “epic”. Tomato, tomahto. Doubtless, the “epic scale” can apply to the VN war as a whole, and I certainly do not agree with what _appears_ to be **Sam’s** determination to lay all the responsibility at the doorstep of his political opponents. Fair enough. I actually hesitated over the word “epic” myself, and probably kept it there in the end mainly because I actually know a few of these boat people and have heard their harrowing tales. I’m just about as strongly anti-communist as they come, but I was never comfortable with many of the tactics we used to fight it. It shouldn’t have been necessary to cozy up with the unsavory types we often did-- from the merely corrupt, to the genuinely evil. Add to that a policy which essentially just tried to prevent the South Vietnamese from losing (instead of ensuring they would win), and it’s hard to think of much good that came out of that war. It was a dark, dark period of American history, let alone what the Vietnamese think about that period of THEIR history. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/192 "2004-11-26T19:55:19Z")
But they did! They had a centrifuge, buried under a rose bush. With that one centrifuge, and all that uranium they were importing, they could wait until we weren’t looking and start a program that could produce a uranium bomb in…just a second…times six, carry the two…just under 11,000 years! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/193 "2004-11-26T19:56:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But they did! They had a centrifuge, buried under a rose bush. With that one centrifuge, and all that uranium they were importing, they could wait until we weren’t looking and start a program that could produce a uranium bomb in…just a second…times six, carry the two…just under 11,000 years! Clearly, there was no time to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/194 "2004-11-26T20:16:24Z")
[Found it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=162920): > [@](#): > > originally posted by me: > > - Here are some of the strongest arguments in favor of war, from my view: > > Saddam Hussein heads an brutal dictatorship that imprisons citizens without trial and routinely employs torture. Criticism of the regime is not allowed, and citizens of the country are quite literally hostages of their own government. Hussein’s regime oppresses the Shi’a (sp?) in the south and the Kurds in the north. He has gone so far as to gas civilians in his attempts to repress Kurdish uprisings, and is therefore a war criminal. In the past he has shown a marked disrespect for the standards of international law, attacking first Iran, and then invading Kuwait to settle a drilling dispute. > > The Iraqi regime oversees an aggressive chemical and biological research program, in direct violation of UNSC mandates and its own cease-fire agreement. If not for constant international vigilance, this program would also probably include research into nuclear weapons, which would put Iraq in violation of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (of which it is a signatory) as well. (In fact, before the inspections began, Iraq was in violation of that treaty.) Iraq’s attempts to acquire or build weapons of this nature threaten the regional balance of power, particularly in relation to Iran, and fuel a regional arms race, forcing neighboring states to develop similar weapons as a matter of defense. > > Iraq has displayed a steadfast determination to continue with these programs in the face of intense international pressure. Iraq’s defiance of UN resolutions on this issue exerts a constant strain on the material resources of international community, which must spend billions of dollars a year keeping an eye on him. This money could be better spent. In addition, it has necessitated the imposition of economic sanctions which have in their turn brought terrible suffering to the citizens of Iraq. Hussein’s intransigence in these matters has also led to a stalemated, low- intensity military conflict which has steadily drained lives and resources in the region for over a decade, and does not seem likely to end without some form or armed conflict, sooner or later. > > At the same time, the international community is fractured, indecisive, and weak with regard to Hussein’s regime. The Security Council is paralyzed by internal disputes, and while the various nations on the Council bicker with each other, seeking to safeguard their own short-term national interests, the people of Iraq continue to suffer. > > We have three choices, and two of them are unacceptable. We can continue as we have; but that is unacceptable. We can retire, and allow Iraq to continue on its present course; but that is unacceptable. Or, we can remove the Iraqi regime from power, by force. Since the UN seems unable to come to terms with the this last option, which is nevertheless the only palatable one, then the US must do so, either on its own, or in a coalition of the willing.\* There. Now let us see if you, **Sam** , or **Shodan** can present, in equally cogent fashion, the strongest arguments _against_ the war. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/195 "2004-11-26T20:19:34Z")
I hasten to clarify: the figure “11,000 years” was pulled directly from my fundament. I have not the slightest idea how long it would take, using one centrifuge, to refine enough uranium for a bomb. _This message brought to you as a service to the terminally literal-minded and humor impaired…_ ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/196 "2004-11-26T20:22:02Z")
I hasten to clarify: my comment was meant as sarcasm. Failed, obviously, but still… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/197 "2004-11-26T20:23:54Z")
Not a bit of it! Right on target. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/198 "2004-11-26T20:29:20Z")
If there’s a difference between **Sam Stone’s** opinions and the typical Freeper’s, it’s on the order of the percentage of folks who voted for Bush vs. the percentage of folks who voted for Kerry. Then again, **Sam** still believes Bush has won some sort of “mandate,” which might explain his ocular disorder in overmagnifying the trivial… ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/199 "2004-11-26T20:40:12Z")
I can’t recall ever being mentioned in one of these pissing matches. Oh well. Anyway, my complete lack of patience is due to what **Red Fury** said. Besides, in real life I do have a monstrous temper as well sometimes. And yes, the boat people episode was horrific. I said so myself upon wading into the argument, and losing more than 1 out of every 10, which is the low-end that I came up with, to the categories of dead, missing, and abducted is pretty awful enough without having to exaggerate. Actually, I think something like half of the boats were attacked on their way regardless. So it was hellish. However, my patience long ago wore out. I see no honor at all on the other side, just a bunch of people willing to parade whatever propaganda gets spewed, regardless even of the number of our own soldiers who die in the service of lies, much less the innocent Iraqis caught in the crossfire. It was especially disappointing to see both **Scylla** and **Sam Stone** enthusiastically embrace the Swift Boat Lies. That did it for me. It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to call one candidate a traitor. That was way over the line, especially after all the lies that got us into this mess. So no, my patience is not coming back. Which, I suppose, means I’ll be in a lot more of these pissing matches. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/200 "2004-11-26T21:18:10Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Actually, the problem is, as usual, quite the opposite. Please point me to a single post in which **Sam** , **Shodan** , or the other pro-war apologists on this board have _ever_ conceded that the anti-war side had a point – even in the face of the WMD fiasco. Do I count as a pro-war apologist? In [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3544410&postcount=31), I said: > [@Bricker](#): > > I am generally a supporter of the Bush administration, and I agree that the world is better off without the Saddam Hussein regime in place. > > But that is irrelevant to the issue of whther or not he lied about, or acted irresponsibily in believing and repeating, Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. I will not be fooled by the attempt to slip this one by. I will be waiting for actual wepaons of mass destruction - biological or chemical or nuclear - to emerge from Iraq. > > And if they are not found within six months or so, I am going to be looking for someone other than Bush to vote for come 2004. > > I make room for the possibility that a reasonable explanation may emerge in place of the actual weapons. So far, I haven’t heard the administration say anything close to a reasonable explanation. I am deeply disappointed on this issue. Now, as it happens, I did vote for Bush. I did so because, having reviewed what the administration relied upon, I concluded that he neither lied or acted irresponsibly. He was wrong, though, without question, and I remain disappointed in the failure of our intelligence in this area. It would have been far better to make our case for war based on the _probability_ of WMDs, rather than a claim of _certainty_. - Rick [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343.md?page=11)