# Bricker: Got A Second? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343 "2004-11-23T20:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/381 "2004-12-13T00:21:40Z")
Not to mention that the containment strategy **Scylla** was deriding as “lucky” was the one targeting Iraq, not Al Qaeda or the nebulous “terrorism”. Examples of Al Qaeda or other terrorist-group activities aren’t relevant to the Iraq situation anyway ( **random** , you \*do \* know Saddam had fuck-all to do with 9/11, don’t you? Please say you know). I replied to them anyway because Bush 1 and Clinton were applying a similar policy of containment to them as well as to Iraq, to the extent possible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/382 "2004-12-13T00:26:12Z")
> [@Random](#): > > You’re wrong. > > and > > Source: [http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2002&m=October&x=20021018155427mkellerh@pd.state.gov0.9141504&t=xarchives/xarchitem.html](http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2002&m=October&x=20021018155427mkellerh@pd.state.gov0.9141504&t=xarchives/xarchitem.html) > What did you say about facts, again? What does any of this have to do with Iraq? That was the topic. Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/383 "2004-12-13T00:36:15Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Scylla** :I’ll be back with more observations in a minute, but just let me say quickly that, until you’ve volunteered for combat duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, you have no right whatsoever to employ the pronoun “we” in the sentences above. I have every right, and it’s none of your business or concern. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/384 "2004-12-13T00:56:26Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Scylla** : > > First off, let me clarify something. When I wrote _”Argue from a conservative point of view if you wish, but please stop making shit up to support your argument. Because that’s what really pisses me off,”_ in my previous post, above, I wasn’t speaking specifically of _you_. I meant ”you” in the general sense, as in, ”You folks on the right.” While you and I have our differences, I don’t think that you are anywhere near as disingenuous on that point as many other posters, which is why I continue to address you with respect. You didn’t write that in your previous post above. The previous post above is the one where you tell me I’m not allowed to say “we.” I didn’t take your comment of two posts ago as directed at me anyhow. To my mind, in this case, the fact that Chalabi was known as a con-artist and shyster _years_ before the Bush and the neo-cons tapped him to be titular head of Iraq. It’s hard to justify the relationship Bush had to Chalabi prior to the discovery that he (Chalabi) was passing state secrets to the Iranians. You write:Which is undoubtedly true, but ignores the simple fact that in this instance, with Chalabi, the administration was warned well in advance. Your response has a kind of _prima facie_ reasonableness to it, but then **Nightime** replies:It’s really very simple. It’s a relief to see someone express in a straightforward manner, with a simplicity I don’t master, exactly what happened and why it’s a problem. [/quote] I don’t understand how I’m being impervious to the fact Chalabi’s a scumbag. I think the first time I addressed the subject on this board was when it was just brought up. I acknowledged it as a fact, a mistake and failing of the administration. How am I being impervious? Are you impervious? I think our opinion of Chalabi is the same. I think this is a failing of the administration but I don’t think it proves anything. We have to deal with somebody. Doubtless, everybody is warning us about everybody else. We make judgements and sometimes they’re wrong. > [@](#): > > Now, before Chalabi got burned, the inestimable **Simon X** started a long thread about him, which demonstrated clearly what a lying sack o shit Chalabi really was. This was well-known before the administration decided to employ him, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, as a source of information on Iraq. So – **Simon’s** a conservative, but he didn’t see a need to ”fudge the facts” in order to support his conservative ideas. Which only goes to show that conservatives _can_ be members of the reality-based community if they so wish. So? I was impervious? I really don’t understand what your complaint with me on this issue is? > [@](#): > > We can also employ your kitchen metaphor, if you so wish. We could compare Iraq to a bad kitchen, and Chalabi to the plumber you hired to fix it. You were warned, repeatedly and clearly, by many neighbours who knew through previous experience that Chalabi was a bad plumber and a crook to boot, but you chose to ignore their warnings. They even had evidence, in the form of previous work he had done, which unequivocally demonstrated his incompetence. You dismissed it. > > Now we’ve paid Chalabi thousands and thousands of dollars to fix our kitchen, and it’s in worse shape than it was before. And you’re going to tell me that the responsibility for hiring this goon, over the warnings of those who knew him well, somehow doesn’t reside with you, or was nothing other than a simple ”mistake,” for which you should not be held accountable? Sheesh, bud. Back up a step. I’m not arguing for Chalabi. I’m not arguing the administration didn’t err in placing confidence in him. I hate to be taken to task for arguments I’m not making. I think the actual question is how we view the administration in light of this error. Frankly, I don’t know how to evaluate it. I strongly suspect that there are all kinds of groups and people we could be dealing with, and that few of them are particularly savory, and that we’ve had warnings and complaints about many. To go back to your kitchen example, I think the metaphor would work this way: You need plumbing work done. There are three plumbers that can potentially do the job. In checking them out, you find complaints and problems with all three. In interviewing them, they make promises, address the complaints and problems that have been made against them. They try to build a rapport, make themselves look good and make their competitors and those that complained about them look bad. In the end, you choose the one you think you can work with, and the one you think you can manage best. Sometimes you choose badly. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/385 "2004-12-13T01:05:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not to mention that the containment strategy **Scylla** was deriding as “lucky” was the one targeting Iraq, not Al Qaeda or the nebulous “terrorism”. Examples of Al Qaeda or other terrorist-group activities aren’t relevant to the Iraq situation anyway. Actually, I pretty much deride any policy that simply postpones a problem rather than addresses it. I think Al Qaeda and terrorism are very relevant to Iraq. Saddam is our declared enemy and it would be foolish to attempt to operate in the region with him a free threat. He gave money to suicide bombers’ families and applauded 9/11, so he was clearly aiding terrorists. He has in the past proven that he’s willing to take a gambit and invade an ally of ours if he thinks he can get away with it. His denouement was long overdue, IMO and I think it is foolish and stupid to allow such enemies to continue to exist if you have an option. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/386 "2004-12-13T01:07:57Z")
Iraq had zero to do with al Qaeda and suicide bombers in Israel are none of our business. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/387 "2004-12-13T01:11:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I gave the short answer. The long one would be that the strategy was working imperfectly despite the energetic efforts of the Bush 1 and Clinton administrations. As Ridge likes to point out, we have to be perfect, they only have to succeed once. Containment wasn’t perfect, but it worked better than anything else could have. They can’t succeed once if they don’t exist any more. > [@](#): > > And what’s the alternative you propose? This “mountain clearing” has resulted in the Bali bombing, the Madrid bombings, I don’t think the statement that our reaction to 9/11 created Bali and Madrid. Terrorism has existed for quite some time. > [@](#): > > the new AQ recruiting ground in Iraq where over 1000 of our people have died and many more have been maimed. More people either hate us or fear our irrationality or both than ever before, and are busy saying “Nice doggie” while looking for rocks. The “government” we propose to leave behind in Irarq after some sham elections looks like it will be every bit like the one we overthrew. In Afghanistan, the warlords are back in control over the entire country outside Kabul, and the Taliban is regrouping. Osama is nowhere to be seen, and Bush is doing exactly jack shit about getting him. > > That’s an improvement? Yes, by all means let us look at the facts. Do tell us more. Those aren’t facts, Elvis, they’re your opinion, your asessment of the situation. It’s one I think is pretty obviously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/388 "2004-12-13T01:43:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What does any of this have to do with Iraq? That was the topic. Iraq. > [@elvislives](#): > > …Sadaam… Well, no. This thread hasn’t been limited to Iraq. And the two points I’ve recently addressed have specifically had broader scope. **Point One:** **Scylla** made a comment: > [@](#): > > We’re not taking the containment approach, if you’ve noticed. Didn’t work. Korea is still there. Terrorism is still there. The World Trade Centers aren’t. We’ve already had one avalanche, now we’re clearing the mountain. . **Mr Svinlesha** objected to Scylla’s pronoun usage in this paragraph. That’s one of the two points I adressed. The Scylla comment isn’t limited to Iraq. Actually, it’s more about 9/11 and Korea. Korea ain’t Iraq. Yeah, you could read Iraq into his comment about “clearing the mountain”, but it also covers many other acts by the US. Afghanistan is in there as much as Iraq is. **Point Two:** **ElvisL1ves** said, following up on the above point by Scylla relating to containment: > [@](#): > > It {containment} succeeded for ten full years, with no US or other allied casualties. . I’ve already established above that Scylla was talking about containing terrorism, Korea and the perpetrators of 9/11. That would be Al Qaida and not Iraq. Maybe Iraq’s in there too (by implication), but he’s clearly talking about a broader list of threats. Given that, Elvis was wrong. There were other casualties, and the storm was clearly gathering. I have no intention of getting drawn into a debate on Iraq. It’s been done to death. Sorry if this offends you, but I chose to address other issues. So I did. And your implication that my points are invalid because I didn’t get into your favorite issues (“Bush lied!” “Iraq bad!”) doesn’t hold up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/389 "2004-12-13T01:50:44Z")
The term “containment” refers only to Iraq. Nobody uses that term to refer to Iraq. This whole thing started because **Scylla** was trying to assert that W had inherited an “unstable situation” in Iraq. An assertion that was rightly called bullshit by such alacritous posters as me. An attempt to then bring in al Qaeda is just a lame grasping at straws. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/390 "2004-12-13T01:52:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Nobody uses that term to refer to Iraq. Terrorism. Nobody uses that word to refer to _terrorism_. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/391 "2004-12-13T01:59:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Terrorism. Nobody uses that word to refer to _terrorism_. Are you **ever** right? Results of google search (terrorism and containment). 205,000 hits. [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=containment+terrorism](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=containment+terrorism) ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/392 "2004-12-13T02:07:57Z")
And to shoot another Diogenes in the drum: contain and “north korea” gets us 283,000 hits. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/393 "2004-12-13T02:14:42Z")
Wow. Impressive. Did you try Googling “containment” and “China”? Or “containment” and “Stalin”? How about “containment” and “Tupperware”? ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/394 "2004-12-13T02:17:12Z")
Truly, containment only refers to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/395 "2004-12-13T02:20:20Z")
[Bush Douche Monkey](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=bush+douche+monkey&btnG=Search) gets 10,900 hits. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/396 "2004-12-13T02:21:33Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Truly, containment only refers to Iraq. As a matter of fact, in this context it does. It is and was not a term used in conjunction with terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/397 "2004-12-13T02:32:54Z")
I think you have to repeat it one more time to make it true. Then all those google hits will disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/398 "2004-12-13T02:41:38Z")
The Google stunt is meaningless. I thought we had already made that more than obvious but you seem to be a special case so I’ll soeak very slowly. You can pair the word “containment” with _anything_ on Google and get lots of hits. It proves exactly dick. “Containment” Is a term which was very commonly used by politicos in conjunction with Iraq. It was not used for terrororism. You will not be able to find a cite for any politician citing the need to “contain terrorism.” I guarantee you. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/399 "2004-12-13T02:43:31Z")
OOH!! OOH!!! I got [187,000 for Random Containment!](http://www.google.com/search?q=random+containment&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) Do I at least get a Cracker Jack prize? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343/400 "2004-12-13T03:12:54Z")
Jeez, I got bad news, **Dio**. Google **Random** and you get like 55,000,000 hits! Google **Diogenes** and its something like 118,000. So, really, that’s it. Game over, he wins. I would have Googled **elucidator** , but I was in a hurry to get back and tell you guys. Couldn’t wait that long, you know how it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-got-a-second/276343.md?page=21)