Bricker is a disingenous punk.

As I stated before, though, if there had been any other kind of notable difference between the Duke accusers and the accusers, I seriously doubt that anyone would have seized upon it and use that to estimate credibility. Perhaps you disagree with this opinion of mine and that’s cool. But if anyone holds a gun to your head and asks you whether Bayesian reasoning would have been proposed as a way of assessing a rape case involving Catholic schoolboys and a backsliding Jew, for your family’s sake, just say no!

I appreciate your other comments. We don’t agree on everything, but that’s not necessary to have my respect.

How do you figure? First, how in the world is it dishonest tell someone you think he is missing the point? Or that what he is saying inadvertently supports your point? I don’t see it. I might sign on to the last point you make, but not necessarily.

So you couldn’t find any data to support this claim, eh?

That’s what I thought. Yet again we see another dishonest tactic by the esteemed Counsellor.

Can I ask why you didn’t link us to the post that I responded to? This one?

Notice, friends and neighbors, that not once did he mention this all-so-important disclaimer. In fact the, only time in the entire trainwreck of a thread that he stated this disclaimer was in this post where he writes (insultingly to boot):

(bolding mine)

Facts show that despite your insistence that you repeated this over and over again, you actually did not repeat it all. You stated this once, in a post where you forcefully advocated that a person’s credibility can be judged based on the frequency of the crime that they are reporting. That “all other factors being equal” BS absolves your statement of nothing. Frankly, it makes it worse since it renders the views you were rather passionately defending only relevant in a fantastical realm of zombie ghosts, ninja robbers, and gravity-defying nickels. Not in the real world of Durham, NC, where a rape has been alleged.

The behavior you’re now showing is why I called you a disingenous punk. Confronted with a request to prove that I attributed to you a strawman, you come back with something else altogether. But that “something else” turns out to be nothing at all, except another opportunity for you to lie and pretend as if you’ve been unfairly misunderstood.

You might have been part of it in those other threads, but as I pointed out you did not contribute in this thread. But I am not surprised. I seem to recall your cheap tactics before. And don’t bother asking for a cite. Look it up yourself if you’re interested. You are not worth this response, never mind one that requires even a modicum of effort.

This describes you perfectly:

If you would like any further response from me, type it and then paste this in as my response.

merely “quoting” the post and saying “you’re missing the point, and proving my point for me” doesn’t explain what point you think they’re missing nor does it explain how you think they’re proving your point. Hint. Repeating the same phrase also doesn’t explain it.

You have yet to show any tactic whatsoever on my part, magellan. As face pointed out, my comments were perfectly on-topic. Merely continuing to insist that they are what you say they are, especially when you’ve been repeatedly refuted, does not an argument make. Since you’re the one who’s suddenly decided the Pit is GD, I assume you will return with an actual argument?

(Ignoring the recent spate of personal attacks…) You don’t have to understand complicated math to understand this. I don’t know a thing about this Bayesian math, or whatever it is. But nonetheless, I shall now make everything clear (waves hands magically…):

For my argument, I shall presume 3,000,000 women, and 3,030 actual rapes performed by whites (or interracials, or whatever we’re debating at the moment). These numbers were chosen for two reasons: to make the math easy, and to make the number of raped women a small fraction of the actual population. I think we can agree that the first is a noble goal and that the second is a reasonable assumption for the most part.

For the moment, no statement about the ratio of white to black women in the population will be made; we will have to make one later, of course, because it DOES matter to the final decision. (It makes all the difference in the world, really.)

Suppose we are given that 99% of rapes are performed on whites. From that, we know that 3000 white women were actually raped, and 30 black women were, give or take a few fractions of a woman. That’s simple enough I don’t expect a lot of argument there.

Now, suppose we also assume that “25% of rape accusitions are false”. Well, what does that mean? It clearly does NOT mean that 25% of women are reporting false rapes; that would mean that there were at least 750,000 rape accusations and only 3,030 rapes, and with 250 liars for every honest women I wouldn’t believe either of the two women in question, race be damned.

No, “25% of rape accusitions are false” means what it says: for every four rape accusations, there is one false one; or put another way, for every three actual rapes, there is one false accusation. So, with 3030 real rapes there are 4040 accusations, and we know that at least 3000 of them are from white women and that at least 30 of them are from black women. The other 1010 accusations are distributed somehow amongst the remaining women.

This much, we know from the numbers we are given. Now, at this point it would be nice to know what the distribution of those other 1010 accusations are. After all, if they’re all white women, then there would be 4010 white accusations, 3000 of which (~74.8%) are honest, with 100% honesty of black accusations; if only black women make false accusations, then there are 1040 black accusations, of which 30 (~2.9%) are true, and 100% of white women are honest. Here are some other possible numbers:

50/50 false claims: 3505 white claims (~85.6% honest) vs. 535 black claims (~5.6% honest)
75% of false=white: 3758 white claims (~79.8% honest) vs. 282 black claims (~10.6% honest)
90% of false=white: 3909 white claims (~76.7% honest) vs. 131 black claims (~22% honest)
99% of false=white: 4000 white claims (75% honest) vs. 40 black claims (75% honest)

Now, I personally thing it’s reasonable to, in a total absence of other evidence, to consider the rate of honesty for a given race on a given topic to be a good ‘credibility indicator’ for a person of that race speaking on that topic. In other words, those numbers up there are how much I trust each woman, based on race alone, when I’m totally lacking other evidence. If I have other evidence, then that evidence of course overshadows the assumption I make based on race, proportional to the credibility and relevence of the other evidence.

So. For black accusations as much credibility as white accusations, the distribution of the false claims has to be the 99%; the same as the proportion of actual rapes between the races. (This is no coincidence.) That’s 1010 lyting whites, and 10 lying blacks. Now, there are some people (face) who already assert that they think that we should indeed assume a 99% distribution of lies to whites. There are also some people (face) who state that the percentace of blacks in the population is irrelevent to the question. People who hold both these positions are racist. If, for example, the population was evenly divided, to flat out assume that white people are 99 times more likely to lie than black people without any other evidence supporting that assumption is preposterous and blindly in favor of blacks over whites. Similarly, to state that we cannot draw conclusions because we do not know the proportion also smacks of racism, because there is a conclusion that fair minded people can draw, and in fact, have no choice but to draw: that out of the population, a given black person is exactly as likely to be a liar as a given white person. To assume otherwise without evidence is to hold an arbitrarily bias against one race or the other.

So. If all women are equally likely to falsely file a rape claim, then the number of false claims from women of a given race should be proportional to the number of women of that race in the population as a whole. (Anything else would be an uneven distribution of liars across races, which might in fact be the case but is fucking racist to assume without some kind of support. This means, if the 50% of the women are black, I refer to my numbers above and determine that an arbitrarily selected black woman’s rape claim is something like 14 times more likely to be false, since around 50% of the false claims can be assumed to come from black women. That is a hell of a difference, and there can be a lot of slippage in the numbers with the credibility of the white woman’s claim still being higher. Even if 90% of women are white, a random white claim is still almost three times more credible based on the statistics. (All of this is easily overriden when actual hard evidence comes to the table, of course. You could be talking about one of the 30.)

When you come right down to it, unless you have hard information about the relative credibilty of the rape claims from each race (in which case you already know which woman is more credible) then the only time when the white and black womens’ claims are equally credible from a statistical point of view is when the proprotion of rapes between the two races is approximately equal to the proportion of women between the two races. Which makes perfect sense, when you think about it.

As I’ve said, it was not my intent to come defend Psychloan. If EE or anyone else had come in and done the same thing to YWTF or DMC or anyone else on the other side who fully engaged I would like to thiink I would have responded similarly. As I also said, I commend his decision to seek verification when it was apperant that he and YWTF were not going to agree. When I looked at the thread in GQ I saw that some people agreed with him. If the tide turned I take your word for it. But the thread was there for all to see. The fact that he moved it to GD, which I also take your word for, doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, as it was all done out in theopen. So the way I see it. He went to GQ for hard information, then wanted to expose it to the air of debate in GD. It seems reasonable to be. If he did this without letting anyone know, as was once done to me by a secret pit thread, I would say that that was indeed dishonorable. Excuse me if I missed something, but I had somewhat bowed out of the thread about that point and have no desire to defend behavior that I didn’t experience first-hand.

His first post in the whole thread was #251, which referred to Bricker. You’ll notice I didn’t feel compelled to smack him until much after that. I cited post 251 simply to show ALL of his involvement and the degree of his contribution. The third one, the one where he demonstrated his punk core is what I objected to.

When I mentioned I agreed with Brandon it was his ultimate position that I was agreeiing with, along with Bricker and others. As far as this rationale you cited, if that’s his reason, I think it’s piss-poor. But I take his statement as an offering as to why the statistics show that whites are more often victim’s of rapes than blacks. He may be right, half-right, or completley wrong about those reasons. It is a moot point to me as I do not think the discussion has to go there. All you need, and should consider, are the “givens” offered in the hypothetical. Either there is enough information there to draw a conclusion or there isn’t? That is what the debate was about. from this thread, anyway.

I really don’t want to get in to this again. If you are truly interested in my opinion, I would direct you to my posts. I’m not trying to be evasive, I just have zero desire to explore this any further.

I’ll just say that I make a distinction between a particular claimadn the person. My previous posts will explain more if you are so inclined.

If that was all I had done, I’d agree. I provided further explanation.

Just curious, magellan. What are your thoughts on psychloan’s statement that I requested clarification on? Here it is again:

How logical does this sound to you? Do you its unreasonable to ask for an explanation for this, especially after having to hear a lecture on how I’m too incompetent to understand Bayesian reasoning and the extent that it can be applied to rape allegations in a real world situation?

Brandon, feel free to chime in, too. You seem to think I have all these wrong ideas about people and the arguments they’re making, but again I disagree.

Post #380 lays out the case rather well. You may want to go back and review it. Repeatedly.

Post #380 lays out the case rather well. And if you knew anything about debate, you would know that an appeal to the masses is a fallacy. And you would know what a fallacy is. and you would know to avoid them. If the best you could do is point to someone else and say “L-L-Look, he agrees with me, that means I’m right” and “He thinks you’re wrong, so I’m right”, I am not surprised.

As a gift to my brain, and soul, you and I are done.

Begbert, we’ve been over the numbers a million times, and you don’t bring anything new to the table other than to call people, who think blacks and whites are equally credible, “racists” for some stupid reason. You tied false rape claims to actual rapes, but then you want to tie the likelihood that a claimant is lying to the general population numbers. You want easy math? I’ve got it for you:

If 25% of rape claims are false, and if that 25% holds across races, then for any given rape claimant of any color, there is a 25% chance she is lying.

See how easy that is?

For every 10,000 white women in North Carolina, 4.5 were raped in 2004. For every 10,000 black women in North Carolina, 9 were raped in 2004. Using your math, aren’t the black women much more likely to be telling the truth? Personally, I would find them equally credible, but hey, I’m apparently racist.

I searched this thread for the original statement, but it seems to go back to one of the other threads, which I am not inclined to go through. But I don’t think it matters. I’d say it is rarely (never?) unreasoanble to ask for clarification. In fact, this should be done more, not less. My guess is that it would make debates cleaner and less frustrating for all parties concerned. I mean how can you respond to something meaningfully if you are unsure of what the poster intended. You have to guess, and that it all goes to shit from there. I’m all for clarifying statements and positions and clearly defining terms.

holmes those are not my reasons, not by a longshot, those are just potential variables that could attribute to the descrepancy between white on white rapes and white on black rapes. I could be right or I could be wrong about any or all of those potential offerings, but I was stating them to show that the difference could be due to anything, and that ultimately the reason why it existed didn’t matter but what really mattered was that the discrepancy existed and how we could apply it to our hypothetical scenario. I was trying to show you that the chasm could be because of anything and to not let that distract you from the chasm itself, as that was all that matters. I am sorry if I was unclear in conveying that message. It was more of a response to you with the face and her statement that bodybuilders are less likely to be raped then skinny women according to common sense. I hope that helped to clarify it for you.

Actually, they agreed with his math (which I have no problem with agreeing to its accuracy), but he had to add unrealistic assumptions to actually be able to perform the math, so they don’t agree with his conclusion from the math. In fact, when I gave him the closest thing to actual numbers that we have available, even allowing him to change the false reporting rate to be measured against the general population (which skewed it further to the white woman’s credibility), his conclusion was the opposite. Specifically, he said:

I don’t agree with that conclusion either, but it shows that the problem was with the numbers he was using, so agreeing with his math doesn’t imply agreement with his conclusion in any way, shape, or form.

Nope, it does not. It’s just a bunch of bullshit you made up.

It took me a minute to figure out what the hell you’re even talking about here. You read the first three words of any given post and then stop there to respond, don’t you? Why the fuck are you nattering about debate? I’m not, and I never have been, debating with you. Merely stating that someone else has already made a point one wishes to re-iterate isn’t calling on the masses. You’re not making a lick of sense, dude, right up to where you start blithering about your “soul” for chrissake. If it’s really strained by this, maybe you shouldn’t have started in on me in the first place?
[/
As a gift to my brain, and soul, you and I are done.
[/QUOTE]

I said it here.

I said it here, too.

I was quoted in the OP of this very thread saying it:

In this post, Ensign takes me task for saying it, commenting:

I repeat the sentiment again in this post.

Here’s another post in which I repeat the mantra.

Here is YET ANOTHER post.

Do you now agree I said it multiple times?

Well, I don’t think anyone is bound to give up his stance if he still thinks he is correct. I don’t think you do either. One reason I had bowed out of the debate was that I felt that the scenario was beiong made more and more complicated. To me it is a logic/probability problem. Which means the stripping away is helpful. Adding stuff, not so helpful.

It’s very easy to assert something false, isn’t it? Presume a third population: swedish-americans, who by an amazing stroke of luck, managed not to get raped at all. You take those 25% of claims made in the population and distribute them into the set of swedish-americans. 100% of the rape claims by swedish-americans (in this scenario) are false. Ergo, your assertion is equally false.

Next time, try reading what I wrote. The numbers don’t lie. Your only chance of contesting my conclusions would be to present an actual plausible reason why the proportion of blacks in the population (say, 25% of women) are making such an amazingly low rape claim rate (say, 1% of claims). Such reasons surely exist in reality, and such reasons are the only way to mitigate the conclusion I draw. (The most obvious such reason that I can think of on shourt notice would be a lower availability of black women for whites to rape based on proximity of locale.)

I will retract my accusation of racist, unless there actually is someone out there who thinks that by and large blac women are 99% more honest than white. To them, it definitely does apply; to persons using alternate (and rational) reasons to see a difference between the reported rape populations no insult applies (as yet, this total numbers 0).

Fair enough, yet I still ask. If and this is a purely hypothetical question. If on Earth X, the only difference between the two claims is a matter of skin color, everything is exactly the same, including the “attraction”, is the claim of the black woman less credible than the white one, based on her races’ statistical representation? If so, why?

All things being equal of course.