# Bricker the troll **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791 "2009-09-27T23:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/121 "2009-09-28T22:01:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > See now, here’s the problem. The notion that ACORN was required by law to submit falsified voter forms is too bizarre to discuss. You’re actually disputing this. **Shodan** , ACORN really is mandated by law to submit every registtration form that’s filled out, regardless of how suspicious, or even obviously falsfied thy may be. They have no legal choice about it. They are not allowed to make decisions as to what forms are or are not valid. They have to submit them all, and let the relevant state agencies sort them out. All that ACORN _is_ allowed to do is flag the frms which they think are suspicious. Which they do. These are facts, and they’re not debatable facts. You can’t handwave them away by calling them “bizarre.” > [@](#): > > And it’s not voter fraud even if the voter names are fraudulent. It’s not. Registrations are not votes. Voter fraud, by definition, has to include an attempt to cast an illegal vote. ACORN has never been charged with voter fraud, and the organization has not even been charged with registration fraud. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/122 "2009-09-28T22:02:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …They forged the names on the forms. That’s the fraud we are talking about. … Awright! Now we’re getting somewhere! **Shodan** ’s got the proof that nobody else, anywhere, has! And as soon as he brings it, we will all line up to apologize most profusely! Me first! And should he fail to do so, we can fairly be assured that he is, as we suspect, a lying sack of shit! Excellent! Balls in your court, **Shoddy**! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/123 "2009-09-28T22:04:14Z")
PS: **Bricker** , come back! All is forgiven! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/124 "2009-09-28T22:06:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is just surreal. This is like someone stuffing a ballot box with a bunch of faked forms, and then claiming they didn’t do anything wrong because the law saws they have to turn in all the ballots. > > So what if they turned in all the forms they received? That isn’t the law they broke. They forged the names on the forms. That’s the fraud we are talking about. No they didn’t, the people who gave the forms to _them_ forged some names, as did some temp workers (very few comparatively) who were trying to _steal_ from ACORN. The oirganization forged nothing and, in fact, _flagged_ the bogus registration forms themselves. > [@](#): > > The fact that they obeyed one law has nothing whatever to do with the fact that they broke other laws. The assertion that they did, or that they didn’t commit any kind of fraud because there is one kind they didn’t commit, is idiotic. They didn’t commit any fraud whatsoever. They REPORTED fraud. > [@](#): > > They committed voter fraud. No one, as far as I know, has ever accused ACORN of the crime of not turning in all of their ballot forms. But they have been accused, confessed to, and been convicted of, voter fraud. This is flatly and unambiguously false as a matter of hard objective fact. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/125 "2009-09-28T22:08:38Z")
Boy,\*\* Dio\*\*, you’re really gonna be sorry when he brings that solid proof! Any second now… ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/126 "2009-09-28T22:09:39Z")
Okay, so the sticking point seems to be how much culpability ACORN has for the actions of a few. Forging fraudulent registration forms does not appear to be a goal of the organization, nor is it apparent that the front-liners who turned in fraudulent registrations were given permission or ordered to do so. The anti-ACORN side is happy to dump the mess in the organization’s lap entirely, usually with the argument that a business is responsible for the actions of its agents while on company time. I can’t say that’s an unreasonable stance, _except_ when we get to the law about being required to turn in the forms. I’m QC for a transcription company. My responsibility is to ensure the transcripts that our independent contractors type up are accurate to a certain degree and are properly formatted. If a contractor chooses to type up gibberish that has nothing to do with the audio provided, our company most certainly is responsible if we choose to send that on to our customer. But if there were a law that said we _had_ to send our transcripts to our customers as is, and we weren’t allowed to make any changes to what we received, then yes, a goodly portion of our finished products would be crap because of some workers that chose to cut corners. Does the quality of the product remain our problem? We can fire the lazy contractors, but the damage has already been done. Is it fair to blame that damage on the company, provided they’re already doing as much preventative QC as they can? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/127 "2009-09-28T22:13:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No they didn’t, the people who gave the forms to _them_ forged some names, as did some temp workers (very few comparatively) who were trying to _steal_ from ACORN. The oirganization forged nothing and, in fact, _flagged_ the bogus registration forms themselves. > > They didn’t commit any fraud whatsoever. They REPORTED fraud. > > This is flatly and unambiguously false as a matter of hard objective fact. I just wanted to repeat this for emphasis. ACORN did not forge any forms. A temp worker for ACORN did. ACORN flagged these forgeries. ACORN fired the temp worker. ACORN was \*\*still required to submit these \*\*(now flagged! Look at these! ) forms and these forms (forged by a temp worker) were subsequently tossed out BY OFFICIALS (not by ACORN) as part of the correct procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/128 "2009-09-28T22:20:09Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Does the quality of the product remain our problem? We can fire the lazy contractors, but the damage has already been done. Is it fair to blame that damage on the company, provided they’re already doing as much preventative QC as they can? It might also be relevant to note that half our business is law enforcement recordings, and our transcripts are often used in court proceedings. If this law were in place that said we _had_ to turn in transcripts as is and couldn’t correct them before sending them to our customers, should we then be found guilty of fraud or perjury or whatever the proper penalty is? That law requiring the forms to be handed in is one hell of a hand-tier. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/129 "2009-09-28T22:33:10Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > There has been more than one ACORN employee convicted of voter registration fraud. This is not a matter of simply submitting bullshit registrations that people give them, but of altering or creating the registrations. There are institutional problems in ACORN - something wrong with the way it’s managed and directed - so much so that it is sponsoring an independent investigation of itself. I never got around to responding this. “More than one”? This is an organization that has, according to its own website, 400,000 member families in 1,200 chapters. And that doesn’t even include the thousands of people who it hires to do voter registration work. The fact that “more than one” of these people might have been convicted of voter registration fraud does not, in my opinion, conclusively point to the sort of structural and institutional problems that you seem to believe exist in the organization. Rather than using its own internal investigation as evidence of wrongdoing at an institutional level, why don’t we wait and find out what the investigation reveals? If it reveals that some chapters or groups have been acting illegally, then deal with that. If it reveals that a few individuals have been committing fraud for personal gain, then deal with that. And if it reveals deep institutional corruption, then deal with that. But the fact that a few individuals have been convicted doesn’t really amount to very much. I have access to Lexis/Nexis, and i did a search on terms like: **acorn voter fraud conviction** and some similar permutations and combinations, going back two years, and i found nothing about any convictions. I found one _Philadelphia Inquirer_ article from October, 2008, about a Chester, PA, man who was a former ACORN worker who had been arrested for altering names and forging signatures on voter registration cards. But that was it. It could be that my Lexis/Nexis search skills aren’t as good as i thought, but i’m generally pretty good at finding news stories on that database. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/130 "2009-09-28T22:37:54Z")
Well, you’re gonna look really stupid when \*\*Shodan \*\*gets here with his proof! He’s just letting the suspense build and then…wham! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/131 "2009-09-28T22:47:07Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It could be that my Lexis/Nexis search skills aren’t as good as i thought, but i’m generally pretty good at finding news stories on that database. Well, you missed this [one](http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/aug/18/deal-ex-acorn-official-cops-voter-quota-scheme/), which I did manage to find - via a wingbat website - given the “christopher edwards nevada” information contained in **Shodan** ’s link above. > [@](#): > > Christopher Edwards, 33, the former Las Vegas field director for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, pleaded guilty to two gross misdemeanor counts of conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters. And I know there was a case here in St. Louis shortly before I got here. Try the Post-Dispatch. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/132 "2009-09-28T22:48:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, you’re gonna look really stupid when \*\*Shodan \*\*gets here with his proof! He’s just letting the suspense build and then…wham! As if! Heh. We count on **Shodan** to: 1. ignore all evidence–regardless of quality–which contradicts any of his assertions 2. quote flimsy crud from partisan websites as if it were from respectable journalists 3. never, ever admit he was incorrect about anything 4. continue to sling around logical fallacies like there’s no tomorrow ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/133 "2009-09-28T22:52:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is just surreal. This is like someone stuffing a ballot box with a bunch of faked forms, and then claiming they didn’t do anything wrong because the law saws they have to turn in all the ballots. :rolleyes: No, it is not like that at all. Stuffing a ballot box results in fake **votes** being **counted.** A **registration form** in the name of Mickey Mouse is harmless unless and until someone claiming to be Mickey Mouse tries to vote. **(Falsely** claiming to be Mickey Mouse, that is; apparently some people are named that for real. Take it up with Hugh Jass.) You obviously are trolling, because you cannot possibly be stupid enough to miss the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/134 "2009-09-28T22:57:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … you cannot possibly be stupid enough to miss the difference. Let me be the first to say… cite? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/135 "2009-09-28T22:58:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > PS: **Bricker** , come back! All is forgiven! Like fuck it is. **Shodan** and **Sam** being so comically worse does not make **Bricker** any less dishonest or amoral. But, by comparison, the Counselor does at least recognize what a fact is, if only for the purpose of weaseling around it. If you think that means something of value, you can have it. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/136 "2009-09-28T23:20:03Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Okay, so the sticking point seems to be how much culpability ACORN has for the actions of a few. Here’s a Bricker-style question for him. . . One of Facebook’s registered users created a poll over the weekend, asking whether or not President Obama should be killed. Facebook operators removed the poll and are cooperating with the Secret Service to root out the perpetrator(s) and are working on coming up with better procedures to monitor their user-generated content. How much culpability should Facebook have for the actions of this individual? [Secret Service investigating Facebook poll on Obama](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/28/facebook.poll/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/137 "2009-09-28T23:20:33Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Well, you missed this [one](http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/aug/18/deal-ex-acorn-official-cops-voter-quota-scheme/), which I did manage to find - via a wingbat website - given the “christopher edwards nevada” information contained in **Shodan** ’s link above. > And I know there was a case here in St. Louis shortly before I got here. Try the Post-Dispatch. Again, though, this isn’t voter fraud, or even voter registration fraud. This is a crime, to be sure: it’s in essence bribing people to register other people to vote. There’s a good reason for it to be illegal. But it’s not voter fraud any more than it’s shoplifting. It’s a different crime altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/138 "2009-09-28T23:32:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, though, this isn’t voter fraud, or even voter registration fraud. This is a crime, to be sure: it’s in essence bribing people to register other people to vote. There’s a good reason for it to be illegal. But it’s not voter fraud any more than it’s shoplifting. It’s a different crime altogether. :rolleyes: How’s [this](http://www.freep.com/article/20081016/NEWS15/810160386)? > [@](#): > > ACORN has had problems with its voter registration workers in the past. In April, eight ACORN workers in St. Louis pleaded guilty to election fraud, accused of submitting registration cards with false names and addresses in the 2006 election. Y’know, it’s not only laborious, but really disgusting to scour through these fucking whackjob sites trying to find links that are a) to a real news source, and b) live. If y’all want to pretend that there have never been any convictions of anyone connected to ACORN of crimes related to voter registration, then feel free. You’re not fooling anybody, though. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/139 "2009-09-28T23:33:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, though, this isn’t voter fraud, or even voter registration fraud. This is a crime, to be sure: it’s in essence bribing people to register other people to vote. There’s a good reason for it to be illegal. But it’s not voter fraud any more than it’s shoplifting. It’s a different crime altogether. Wonder why the Right wingers aren’t up in arms, demanding the arrest and prosecution of Ron Nehring and Steve Poizner, who offered to pay $5.00 for every new registration turned in to them? Oh yeah, because Ron Nehring is the California Republican Party Chairman and Steve Poizner is the Republican State Insurance Commissioner, and their offer was limited to newly registered **Republicans**. Fucking hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791/140 "2009-09-28T23:57:01Z")
Note: [freep.com](http://freep.com) is the Detroit Free-Press, a reputable newspaper and home of writer Mitch Albom (he of Tuesdays With Morrie fame), among others. [freerepublic.com](http://freerepublic.com) is the whackjob site. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-the-troll/511791.md?page=8)