# Bricker, You're a Jackass Extraordinaire **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734 "2012-05-12T23:13:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/341 "2012-06-25T17:09:45Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Which raises the question again, why didn’t he just make the comparison explicit? For the same reason I created a little scenario about an inauguration speech and prior Congressional action that stalled. I could have simply written a dry OP that said, “Could a future president overturn capital gains taxes in the same way Obama has overturned portions of the immigration law?” But I didn’t, because I thought that every would understand the parallel (stalled in Congress, it’s the right thing to do, etc). Why would I have added that detail in about being stalled in Congress and “It’s the right thing to do?” otherwise? I ask again: did anyone read that and NOT know what the comparison was? I didn’t make it explicit because I was convinced it was already pretty damn obvious. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/342 "2012-06-25T17:13:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For the same reason I created a little scenario about an inauguration speech and prior Congressional action that stalled. I could have simply written a dry OP that said, “Could a future president overturn capital gains taxes in the same way Obama has overturned portions of the immigration law?” > > But I didn’t, because I thought that every would understand the parallel (stalled in Congress, it’s the right thing to do, etc). Why would I have added that detail in about being stalled in Congress and “It’s the right thing to do?” otherwise? > > I ask again: did anyone read that and NOT know what the comparison was? I didn’t make it explicit because I was convinced it was already pretty damn obvious. If you’re sincere (I’m very dubious), this is an extremely solipsistic post, assuming that of course everyone is as aware as you are of every issue, and draws the same associations with every phrase in English language that you do, and so certainly that you are freed from every bit of responsibility for making clear the connections you have made–it couldn’t possibly be the writer’s responsibility, and it must be the reader’s. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/343 "2012-06-25T17:17:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I ask again: did anyone read that and NOT know what the comparison was? I didn’t make it explicit because I was convinced it was already pretty damn obvious. I doubt anyone who had actively debated the immigration reform issue would not have figured it out. I can’t say for sure if I would because I found that thread via this one. Having said that, I think you’d admit that you _have_ played this game in the past without making it obvious that you’re drawing a similar parallel. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/344 "2012-06-25T17:28:20Z")
\*\*Bricker \*\*is being misunderstood here. Hypotheticals like this have long been part of the western canon, and it is customary to set them up exactly in this way – i.e., with enough resemblance to the actual dispute so people have in the back of their mind their previously offered position, but without explicit reference to the dispute. And there’s a reason for this customary form, which flows from the purpose of this kind of inquiry. The whole point of such hypotheticals is to separate intuitions arising from the facts of the proposition actually in dispute from the logical reasoning that is produced to defend those intuitions (often post hoc, or at least ad hoc). The socratic method accomplishes this by separating the reasons from whatever facts produced them. If the result is the same, this tends to suggests that the reasons are both generally applicable (and therefore good reasons instead of being ad hoc), and that they are not driven entirely by the facts (and therefore good reasons instead of being post hoc). Thus, the whole force of this kind of inquiry derives from separating the hypothetical from the thing actually in dispute. Not as a kind of “gotcha,” but as a recognition of how human cognition works. The goal is to suppress gut intuitions, or else attempt to produce contrary intuitions and see if the same reasoning still applies. You accomplish that by a kind of mutually agreed-upon hide-the-ball. The notion isn’t to trick anyone. The notion is consensual manipulation of gut intuitions to separate the emotion from the logic (to the extent possible). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/345 "2012-06-25T17:37:19Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > If you’re sincere (I’m very dubious), this is an extremely solipsistic post, assuming that of course everyone is as aware as you are of every issue, and draws the same associations with every phrase in English language that you do, and so certainly that you are freed from every bit of responsibility for making clear the connections you have made–it couldn’t possibly be the writer’s responsibility, and it must be the reader’s. Uh huh. And which reader didn’t draw the requisite associations? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/346 "2012-06-25T17:41:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > \*\*Bricker \*\*is being misunderstood here. > > Hypotheticals like this have long been part of the western canon… I appreciate the support, but I am afraid it will fall on deaf ears; the posters most frothing at the mouth over this supposed dishonesty are the posters who think the western canon is a piece of field artillery in California. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/347 "2012-06-25T17:42:17Z")
That would be me. I was following the one story closely and the other one not at all. Or are you suggesting that’s impossible? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/348 "2012-06-25T17:44:00Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > That would be me. I was following the one story closely and the other one not at all. Or are you suggesting that’s impossible? No. Just very surprising. You hadn’t heard a thing about Obama’s plan to implement the DREAM Act by executive order? Then… what story was it you were following closely? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/349 "2012-06-25T18:45:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I ask again: did anyone read that and NOT know what the comparison was? I didn’t make it explicit because I was convinced it was already pretty damn obvious. But I say again: even if everyone immediately knew what the comparison was, they would also have to immediately know that you intended that they know what the comparison was… that is, even if you had absolutely zero intent of pulling a “aha! you think this about this, but not about Obama! Gotcha!”, and I honestly believe you if you say you didn’t, the fact that your post was so similar in content to one that would in fact be leading towards a gotcha of that sort, and the fact that you have made such posts in the past, led an awful lot of people to quite reasonably assume that that’s what was going on, leading to the kerfuffle we’re in now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/350 "2012-06-25T18:51:52Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But I say again: even if everyone immediately knew what the comparison was, they would also have to immediately know that you intended that they know what the comparison was… that is, even if you had absolutely zero intent of pulling a “aha! you think this about this, but not about Obama! Gotcha!”, and I honestly believe you if you say you didn’t, the fact that your post was so similar in content to one that would in fact be leading towards a gotcha of that sort, and the fact that you have made such posts in the past, led an awful lot of people to quite reasonably assume that that’s what was going on, leading to the kerfuffle we’re in now. I can only say that such thoughts of meta-gotchas did not cross my mind prior to the kerfuffle. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/351 "2012-06-25T20:01:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can only say that such thoughts of meta-gotchas did not cross my mind prior to the kerfuffle. Fair enough. I’m not accusing you of having consciously done anything here, I’m just pointing out that I don’t at all find it unreasonable for people’s reactions to be what they were (at least in general). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/352 "2012-06-25T20:19:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: :dubious: **As you motherfucking well know,** what is dishonest about that thread is that it obviously is about something (Obama’s new immigration policy) entirely different than what it purports to be about (capital gains tax). “Gotcha!”-setup threads are always dishonest. So that’s who started that thread. Didn’t open it. Assumed it was a gotcha thread about the immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/353 "2012-06-25T20:23:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Just very surprising. > > You hadn’t heard a thing about Obama’s plan to implement the DREAM Act by executive order? > > Then… what story was it you were following closely? I’m following the immigration story fairly closely. I’m changing the channel any time a tax story comes on. Could easily be the other way around. I don’t see how you can assume everyone is following both stories avidly, or else none, and is therefore responsible for catching every verbal allusion you make. Write clearly or else take the blame when you’re accused of writing deliberately to trick people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/354 "2012-06-25T21:39:55Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I’m following the immigration story fairly closely. I’m changing the channel any time a tax story comes on. > > Could easily be the other way around. > > I don’t see how you can assume everyone is following both stories avidly, or else none, and is therefore responsible for catching every verbal allusion you make. Write clearly or else take the blame when you’re accused of writing deliberately to trick people. There is no tax story. The tax story I told was in the future, made up — made up to mirror the present-day circumstance of the immigration story. So are you saying you read my made-up tax story and it did not bring to mind the immigration parallel? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/355 "2012-06-25T22:15:24Z")
I’m saying that my eyes glaze over when i see squabbling over taxes, and I follow immigration issues pretty well. If someone is riveted by tax-related issues, but doesn’t follow immigration stuff, then he won’t catch your allusions to immigration stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/356 "2012-06-25T22:20:55Z")
Hmm … So you’re trying to say that your eyes glaze over when you see squabbling over taxes, and yet you decided to follow a thread that - as far as you could tell - was completely about taxes and unrelated to your real interest, immigration. “Hmm …” pretty much sums it up, I think. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/357 "2012-06-25T22:31:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Hmm … > > So you’re trying to say that your eyes glaze over when you see squabbling over taxes, and yet you decided to follow a thread that - as far as you could tell - was completely about taxes and unrelated to your real interest, immigration. > > “Hmm …” pretty much sums it up, I think. I got interested when it seemed to be about **Bricker** ’s technique in posing questions–always a hot interest of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/358 "2012-06-25T22:33:33Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I got interested when it seemed to be about **Bricker** ’s technique in posing questions–always a hot interest of mie. Even if so, you’re still saying that you didn’t understand the true subject of Bricker’s OP because your eyes glazed over when you read it. Hard to blame Bricker for that, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/359 "2012-06-25T22:38:20Z")
Well, maybe because I haven’t read the thread with equal interest throughout, I’m missing something, but **Bricker** seems to be suggesting that anyone interested in Topic A on public affairs must be responsible for catching every verbal allusion to Topic B. Is this incorrect? If so, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/360 "2012-06-25T23:18:10Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Well, maybe because I haven’t read the thread with equal interest throughout, I’m missing something, but **Bricker** seems to be suggesting that anyone interested in Topic A on public affairs must be responsible for catching every verbal allusion to Topic B. Is this incorrect? If so, my apologies. Not every allusion, I’d say. Just the most obvious one that’s about the size of the sun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734.md?page=19)