# Bricker, You're a Jackass Extraordinaire **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734 "2012-05-12T23:13:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/121 "2012-05-13T20:42:58Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Calling someone biased is an attempt to undercut the entire argument: They’re biased, therefore their argument is weakened (provided the accusation is true). Fox is _biased_, George Soros is _biased_, SDMB membership is _biased_. > > All of us have bias. **Shayna** has bias, **Bricker** has bias, the mods have bias. I can see how it’s an insult, but it’s also a fair one to lobby at someone in GD imho. So…if it is an insult, it’s a really weak one. > > **Bricker** may charge that someone is biased, but that’s rarely the point of his argument. Or if it is, he at least puts forth a case. No, that’s not correct. Bias is only relevant to the argument when the poster’s credibility or even-handedness is at issue. That is very rarely the case. Much more often, an accusation of bias is entirely gratuitous to the actual argument, which was the case here. The entirety of \*\*Bricker’s \*\*argument was that Halperin was wrong. \*\*Shayna’s \*\*bias or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant to that. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/122 "2012-05-13T20:44:53Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Confirmation bias on your part seems an equally plausible diagnosis. Alternatively, it seems that one of the things Shayna enjoys doing on this board is cheerleading for Obama. Consequently, many of her posts are probably lefty sites debunking conservative myths. That doesn’t say anything about what media she consumes. It says something about what she enjoys posting about. I read mostly libertarian blogs like Hit & Run and Volohk Conspiracy, but I rarely post about them. > > And it is an insult to say that someone deliberately shelters herself from opposing views. It’s possible that not everyone considers an insult. But I imagine most do. And, as I said, it is at least ad hominem since Shayna wasn’t asking anyone to take her word for it. Sure, it could be confirmation bias. But I maintain it is entirely **fair** to speculate about someone’s media consumption based on their behavior here and the sources they link to here. I often link to the WSJ, and I’d have no problem if people here made the claim I mostly read conservative media. (The truth is I mostly read the WSJ and The Atlantic, sometimes FT, and outside of that most of my media consumption is on stuff outside the realm of politics and almost never gets brought up here.) You’re entitled to your opinion, but from what I have seen I don’t believe just saying someone is biased, based on actionable material already in the GD thread itself (the biased news sources) is an ad hominem attack. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/123 "2012-05-13T20:48:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The gravamen of the pitting is that it’s wildly unfair and an insult to claim \*\*Shayna \*\*is living in an echo chamber when (a) you have no idea what media she consumes and (b) the source she quoted on which you’re basing this is hardly a leftist and (c) the error in the source isn’t even obviously an error. Maybe calling someone blindered and irrationally biased is not an insult according to GD rules. I don’t really know. But it’s hardly the platonic ideal of civil discourse. > > Is anyone seriously disputing that? Is \*\*Bricker \*\*even disputing it? It was far from “the platonic ideal of civil discourse”. The part about reading the law was fine, IMHO. I don’t think we have to hold everyone’s hand in GD as they find the facts. If you’re an OP, you should be bring the facts to the debate, not just someone’s opinion. The dig about the echo chamber and the comparison to himself as a paragon of open mindedness was completely inappropriate. I guess there is some long history between the two, and maybe **Bricker** was thinkin "on no, here we go again :rolleyes: ", but it still doesn’t add to reasoned debate. It should be noted that the OP has yet to acknowledge that she was wrong on some of the facts. AFACT, she was. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/124 "2012-05-13T20:48:28Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You’re entitled to your opinion, but from what I have seen I don’t believe just saying someone is biased, based on actionable material already in the GD thread itself (the biased news sources) is an ad hominem attack. It’s not a matter of opinion. It is either is ad hominem or not. And it clearly was in this context. Shayna could be completely biased or completely bias-free and it would have no effect on the truth of Bricker’s claim as it was relevant to the GD thread. I’m not saying it’s an egregious insult. And, as I said, I’m not even sure it’s against the rules. But it doesn’t contribute to civil discussion, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/125 "2012-05-13T20:52:22Z")
It’s probably also worth saying that I don’t think \*\*Bricker \*\*is a jack-ass. I think he’s quite thoughtful and generally one of the posters that makes this board worth reading. And I think this kind of ad hominem is pretty common in GD. But that doesn’t make Shayna wrong about her specific complaint in this thread. At most, it makes this thread an overreaction. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/126 "2012-05-13T21:14:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It’s probably also worth saying that I don’t think \*\*Bricker \*\*is a jack-ass. I think he’s quite thoughtful and generally one of the posters that makes this board worth reading. And I think this kind of ad hominem is pretty common in GD. But that doesn’t make Shayna wrong about her specific complaint in this thread. At most, it makes this thread an overreaction. I don’t know _HOW YOU CAN SAY THIS THREAD IS AN OVERREACTION!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/127 "2012-05-13T21:26:14Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The entirety of \*\*Bricker’s \*\*argument was that Halperin was wrong. \*\*Shayna’s \*\*bias or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant to that. Then why get so upset about it? Calling someone biased in GD is part of the game around here. I’ve been called conservative/right wing/Republican because my views weren’t liberal _enough_. Hell, someone even called me Newt Gingrich before. Any time I’ve taken a Devil’s Advocate in a same sex marriage debate, I’ve been called a homophobe. That, to me, is more insulting (because it wasn’t true) that saying someone with a history of liberal bias has a liberal bias/is influenced by liberal commentators. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/128 "2012-05-13T21:35:13Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > It’s not that **Bricker** is right. It’s just that he posts so freakishly smug. And like I said, as soon as you stop posting, he says you give up/he wins/etc. For everything else **Bricker** does or is, I don’t recall him ever doing or saying that. Are you confusing him for **What The…?!?**? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/129 "2012-05-13T21:35:57Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Then why get so upset about it? Calling someone biased in GD is part of the game around here. I’ve been called conservative/right wing/Republican because my views weren’t liberal _enough_. Hell, someone even called me Newt Gingrich before. Any time I’ve taken a Devil’s Advocate in a same sex marriage debate, I’ve been called a homophobe. That, to me, is more insulting (because it wasn’t true) that saying someone with a history of liberal bias has a liberal bias/is influenced by liberal commentators. Yeah, OK, but this is an argument about whether the degree of Shayna’s outrage is justified, not about whether the complaint in general is warranted. My position is that she is fundamentally correct that Bricker’s post was largely ad hominem. She is not, as \*\*Martin Hyde \*\*puts it, “going insane” to say this was a personal attack. It was. Political debate gets frustrating. It’s hard to avoid calling other people out when you think their position is based on tribal identification rather than reason. But in the relative calm of after-the-fact reflection, I would have thought we could all agree that such accusations of bias are usually little more than name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/130 "2012-05-13T21:58:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah, OK, but this is an argument about whether the degree of Shayna’s outrage is justified, not about whether the complaint in general is warranted. My position is that she is fundamentally correct that Bricker’s post was largely ad hominem. She is not, as \*\*Martin Hyde \*\*puts it, “going insane” to say this was a personal attack. It was. > > Political debate gets frustrating. It’s hard to avoid calling other people out when you think their position is based on tribal identification rather than reason. But in the relative calm of after-the-fact reflection, I would have thought we could all agree that such accusations of bias are usually little more than name-calling. Pshaw. I hope you’re not holding your breath. I couldn’t even get us all to agree that putting more than $1.3 billion back into the economy was a good thing, or that requiring for-profit health insurance providers to use 80% of your premium money on actual health care and not lining massively wealthy CEOs’ pockets is a good thing. And those just seem like basic common sense to me. But then I forget that trolls like Martin Hyde and Bricker live under the rocks around here. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/131 "2012-05-13T22:13:11Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Any time I’ve taken a Devil’s Advocate in a same sex marriage debate, I’ve been called a homophobe. This board operates under the assumption that what you post is what you mean. Taking a position for the fun of argumentation, without clearly saying that’s what you’re doing (as **Bricker** so often does to his enormous discredit), is considered dishonest or even trolling. If you argue a homophobic position, you have no right to complain about being called a homophobe. The fight against ignorance cannot always be polite and remain effective. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/132 "2012-05-13T22:25:01Z")
Devil doesn’t need advocates, he’s got lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/133 "2012-05-13T22:25:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > This board operates under the assumption that what you post is what you mean. Taking a position for the fun of argumentation, without clearly saying that’s what you’re doing (as **Bricker** so often does to his enormous discredit), is considered dishonest or even trolling. If you argue a homophobic position, you have no right to complain about being called a homophobe. The fight against ignorance cannot always be polite and remain effective. I;d put out that disclaimer. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/134 "2012-05-13T22:45:51Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I;d put out that disclaimer. Problem is, that’s a common tactic by people who aren’t interested in having to defend a statement that they actually _do_ wish to believe, knowing it’s indefensible. Better to just be sincere in what you say and in how you respond to responses. **Bricker** ’s failure to do so is at the heart of much of his difficulty here. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/135 "2012-05-13T23:02:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > This board operates under the assumption that what you post is what you mean. Taking a position for the fun of argumentation, without clearly saying that’s what you’re doing (as **Bricker** so often does to his enormous discredit), is considered dishonest or even trolling. If you argue a homophobic position, you have no right to complain about being called a homophobe. The fight against ignorance cannot always be polite and remain effective. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Problem is, that’s a common tactic by people who aren’t interested in having to defend a statement that they actually _do_ wish to believe, knowing it’s indefensible. Better to just be sincere in what you say and in how you respond to responses. **Bricker** ’s failure to do so is at the heart of much of his difficulty here. There’s something to that… but **Bricker** would note that his POV is of the minority in this forum, so he should be cut some slack. Those on the left would be cut more slack for similar behavior, he might say. I say that we’re here to fight ignorance. **Bricker** ’s post are salutatory to the extent they do this, worthy of chiding to the extent that they take our eyes off the ball. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/136 "2012-05-13T23:05:01Z")
If only we had someone willing to expose liberal hypocrisy! Sadly, no. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/137 "2012-05-13T23:48:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If only we had someone willing to expose liberal hypocrisy! Sadly, no. If only there was less of it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/138 "2012-05-14T00:00:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You’re entitled to your opinion, but from what I have seen I don’t believe just saying someone is biased, based on actionable material already in the GD thread itself (the biased news sources) is an ad hominem attack. It is the very definition of an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem is where you address features of the debater’s personality instead of addressing the debating points themselves. This level of ad hominem is, unfortunately, allowed in GD, but that doesn’t mean it’s good practice. That said, **Shayna** , after reading your response to me upthread, I am more convinced than I was to begin with that **Bricker’s** point wasn’t a threadshit or a hijack, nor is he a troll. You made the claim that this return of 1.3 billion into the economy is a good thing; **Bricker** made the counter-claim that its effects wouldn’t be as great as you’d claimed, and said that the benefit wouldn’t necessarily go to the end consumer. Both of these are perfectly valid responses to your OP’s claim. Y’all both screwed up, in my opinion–him by making snotty comments about your bias, and you by calling his legitimate responses trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/139 "2012-05-14T00:02:19Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > You totally just won my vote for the Doper of the year award. Thank you for that. Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734/140 "2012-05-14T01:10:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That said, **Shayna** , after reading your response to me upthread, I am more convinced than I was to begin with that **Bricker’s** point wasn’t a threadshit or a hijack, nor is he a troll. You made the claim that this return of 1.3 billion into the economy is a good thing; **Bricker** made the counter-claim that its effects wouldn’t be as great as you’d claimed, and said that the benefit wouldn’t necessarily go to the end consumer. Both of these are perfectly valid responses to your OP’s claim. The post in question, the first one from **Bricker** in that thread, didn’t make any claims. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-youre-a-jackass-extraordinaire/621734.md?page=8)