# Bricker's betting gambit **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 4, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992 "2013-09-04T13:41:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/221 "2013-09-06T05:49:30Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well, if that’s your aim with the bets, then your MO should be clear: contact the poster in private, via PM, and only if an agreement on a bet comes to pass, make this public (perhaps preferably in a separate thread). Everything else looks just like a cheap trap, because the outcomes are not evenly distributed; you make it look like there’s only a win/loose issue, but there are three options: other party declines, other party accepts and looses, other party accepts and wins. Only the last one is unfavourable for you, while the first two are unfavourable for the other party; thus, by openly proposing the bet, you effectively force the other party to either accept the cost of declining, or risking the loss, while you only have the second option to worry about, thus dragging the discussion on uneven ground, slanted unfairly in your favour. Solid analysis. I don’t think your solution would work too well though. Meaning most people would demur pretty quickly if they received an out of the blue offer to bet via PM, and some might be a little creeped out. And at that point we would miss an opportunity to fight some ignorance. > [@Acsenray](#): > > So the issue seems to be that you want an explicit concession. “I admit I was wrong about that assertion, Bricker, and you were right.” Either on words or in the form of paying you a gambling loss. > > I take it you are aware that for many people, making such a concession involves a major loss of face and severe humiliation. So a lot of people are going to do a lot to resist that. Well, admitting error _shouldn’t_ be that big a deal: I mean we’re all fallible, right? Unfortunately human beings are jumped up howler monkeys with a hastily appended cerebrum, so loss of face matters even in pseudo-anonymous conversation. ## I admit that bet offers can be used as a bludgeon. But it’s precisely the possibility of _psychological_ loss that enables them to encourage careful reasoning and typically moderated stances. Some posters on this board don’t need this sort of assistance. But others do, insofar as the goal is fighting ignorance. Bricker has some special concerns: let me give some background. His posting has leveled up over the past few years. He posts less from his gut and furthermore is somewhat less likely to get caught in a stubbornness loop. Such a shift requires self discipline. So when he sees a poster shoot from the hip without consequence, it has to rankle a little. Especially when he disagrees with the poster. ## I still maintain that friendly bets have constructive potential. But if we decide to make greater use of this tool, we should probably start a betting guidelines thread. It wouldn’t be mod sponsored: it would just address some of the potential traps one can encounter when confronted with the request to give their words some tangible backing. Alas, I’m unconvinced that Bricker is the proper organizer of such a thread. Clarifying question: has anybody ever been modded in GD for making a betting proposal? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/222 "2013-09-06T10:20:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. And that’s always the first step. > > But see – not everyone is **Hentor**. Indeed. In this case, step one (pointing out the error) worked. In case \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, step one didn’t work, but step two–betting the person–worked. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/223 "2013-09-06T11:20:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But see – not everyone is **Hentor**. It’s too bad this is ATMB. Seems like this is a softball set up for some good jokes. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/224 "2013-09-06T12:56:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The “liberal consensus” that fails to excoriate its own for being wrong… Am I the only one reading this thread who is thinking, “If **Bricker** ’s evidence for the above contention consists of a thread from seven years ago, maybe the problem isn’t nearly as pervasive as he believes?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/225 "2013-09-06T13:29:43Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Am I the only one reading this thread who is thinking, “If **Bricker** ’s evidence for the above contention consists of a thread from seven years ago, maybe the problem isn’t nearly as pervasive as he believes?” That’s one of the best examples, because it’s a case in which the claim was so unambiguous, the refutation so crystal clear, and the result so equally unambiguous that it highlights the problem perfectly. And yet, even with all that, we see people here floating little trial balloons to try to save it. “…Steve modified what he said accordingly. You won that part of the debate!” tries **Left Hand of Dorkness**. No need to get pushy, Bricker – he backed away, kinda, sorta, if you squint and look really hard through the squint. No, he didn’t – he said other weaker things but never disavowed his statements, even after I called him on it. _But that was with your mean voice!_ says **Left Hand of Dorkness**! So you can imagine how fast the defense forces would be on any more recent events that didn’t have quite as much evidence and weren’t as crystalline in their utter error. And again: look at how many twists, turns, and contortions of reasoning are being brought forth here to scuttle this. **Der Trihs** can enter thread after thread after thread and announce that Republicans want to see poor people killed, or conservatives hate women and minorities, and that’s not considered enough to craft any stringent remedies. I approach a person that says, confidently, that some future event will happen, and ask him if he wants to wager on it. “Demeaning! Degrading! Classist! Humiliating!” How any of you that allow this to go unremarked even look yourselves in the mirror is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/226 "2013-09-06T13:29:50Z")
The fact that this board leans left is well documented, but only if one measures “leftness” in an American context. From the standpoint of most of the countries represented on this board, it’s probably pretty centrist. I think it behooves us Americans\* to remember that. As the saying goes, you can change the world or you can change yourself. The culture of this board isnt’t going to change, so my advice to conservatives would be look at things you can do about your own posting to make your life hear more pleasant. \*Even though we obviously live in the greatest country _eveerrrrrrrrrrr!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/227 "2013-09-06T13:49:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The culture of this board isnt’t going to change, so my advice to conservatives would be look at things you can do about your own posting to make your life hear more pleasant. THe only thing that can be done would be to stop contradicting liberals. Nothing else is going to do the trick. For instance, **Bricker** is generally recognized as a reasonable poster who is perfectly willing to admit mistakes when he makes them, and change his point of view accordingly. Does this stop him from being Pitted repeatedly, snarked at, belittled, dismissed, and have ATMB threads started complaining bitterly that “ **Bricker** is a big meanie!! He proved me wrong! He’s disrupting the board by trying to make me admit it!! WHAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!” Fortunately, watching assholes go ballistic and start throwing around accusations of trolling when they run into an argument they can’t refute _does_ make the experience of the SDMB more pleasant, at least for some. So thanks for the suggestion, and it has already been taken into consideration. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/228 "2013-09-06T14:05:15Z")
See, **John Mace**? There is apparently a third option you neglected to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/229 "2013-09-06T14:06:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As the saying goes, you can change the world or you can change yourself. The culture of this board isnt’t going to change, so my advice to conservatives would be look at things you can do about your own posting to make your life hear more pleasant. I have. And one of those things that makes my life here more pleasant is forcing my legion of opponents to confront the inaccuracy of their wild predictions by asking them to wager on their accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/230 "2013-09-06T14:09:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fortunately, watching assholes go ballistic and start throwing around accusations of trolling when they run into an argument they can’t refute _does_ make the experience of the SDMB more pleasant, at least for some. This is the last time I’m going to tell you, **Shodan** : the Pit is down that way. This is ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/231 "2013-09-06T14:11:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > THe only thing that can be done would be to stop contradicting liberals. Nothing else is going to do the trick. > > For instance, **Bricker** is generally recognized as a reasonable poster who is perfectly willing to admit mistakes when he makes them, and change his point of view accordingly. Does this stop him from being Pitted repeatedly, snarked at, belittled, dismissed, and have ATMB threads started complaining bitterly that “ **Bricker** is a big meanie!! He proved me wrong! He’s disrupting the board by trying to make me admit it!! WHAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!” > > Fortunately, watching assholes go ballistic and start throwing around accusations of trolling when they run into an argument they can’t refute _does_ make the experience of the SDMB more pleasant, at least for some. > > So thanks for the suggestion, and it has already been taken into consideration. > > Regards, > Shodan Thank you ever so much for your reasonable and level-headed interpretation of what is going on here. :rolleyes: Do you really think posts like this are going to convince anybody of anything? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/232 "2013-09-06T14:14:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have. And one of those things that makes my life here more pleasant is forcing my legion of opponents to confront the inaccuracy of their wild predictions by asking them to wager on their accuracy. “my legion of opponents”? Do actually feel _that_ persecuted here? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/233 "2013-09-06T14:38:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you ever so much for your reasonable and level-headed interpretation of what is going on here. :rolleyes: Do you really think posts like this are going to convince anybody of anything? No. Some people aren’t going to be convinced no matter what I say, or no matter if **Bricker** is a reasonable poster who is willing to admit error, or really, anything else. But that’s what I am saying. I understand - some people aren’t willing to take any point of view seriously besides their own. That’s fine. But I am apparently not like **Bricker** - I can derive amusement from winning an argument even when my opponents won’t admit they’ve lost. But read the darn thread. Accusations of bullying and dishonesty and trolling and classism, all boiling down to the fact that a conservative won an argument. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/234 "2013-09-06T14:38:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “my legion of opponents”? Do actually feel _that_ persecuted here? I’m outnumbered, typically, ten to one or more in any given discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/235 "2013-09-06T14:38:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “my legion of opponents”? Do actually feel _that_ persecuted here? Well… -feel persecuted. -offer wagers. -feel better. It seems to work for him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/236 "2013-09-06T14:46:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But read the darn thread. Accusations of bullying and dishonesty and trolling and classism, all boiling down to the fact that a conservative won an argument. I’ve read the darn thread, and all I see someone who thinks he is being unfairly persecuted even when he wins arguments, and so feels that winning _just_ isn’t enough-he also wants a trophy/prize of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/237 "2013-09-06T14:49:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m outnumbered, typically, ten to one or more in any given discussion. As someone with some training in statistical analysis, I point out the error in this. “Any given discussion” means any random discussion, while the discussions you engage in are by definition self-selected. For your statement to have meaning, we should tally the results of you being dropped into a random sample of discussions, not only in GD, but in the Cafe, IMHO, GQ, etc. We’d have to rely on your honesty in venturing your opinion on the topic (i.e. not reading the thread and posting something deliberately contrary to the consensus just to provoke a “ten to one” reaction), but I guess it could be worked out. Or by "any given discussion: did you mean “any given discussion in which I have engaged” ? Considering _this_ discussion is about making people face (“forcing” them, as it were) the inaccuracies in their claims, I daresay this calls for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/238 "2013-09-06T15:03:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have. And one of those things that makes my life here more pleasant is forcing my legion of opponents to confront the inaccuracy of their wild predictions by asking them to wager on their accuracy. And hows that confronty-changy thing workin’ out for ya? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/239 "2013-09-06T15:18:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve read the darn thread, and all I see someone who thinks he is being unfairly persecuted even when he wins arguments, and so feels that winning _just_ isn’t enough-he also wants a trophy/prize of some sort. What you think you see is not what’s there. However, since **Marley23** has (AFAICT) made his ruling that these bets are not against the rules, and since this is degenerating (or rising :D) to the usual “How Dare You Disagree With Whatever Liberals Are Saying at the Moment”, I think I will leave y’all to your grievances. Unless somebody wants to bet I won’t be back. No checks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992/240 "2013-09-06T15:25:11Z")
Like I said before, if **Bricker** wants to count coup it’s no skin off my nose-it was the hijacking of conversations to work out the details about the bet that irked me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brickers-betting-gambit/667992.md?page=13)